Long Haul Flights

[EHM-0695 Scott]

Is 10 hours on autopilot really building flying experience?

I've done my share of long haul flights where I am at the computer for an hour after departure and come back an hour before landing (what idiot would sit there for 10+ hours?). Aside from a small thrill from landing a 700,000 lb plane, is anybody really gaining anything besides the easiest 8 hours in your logbook?

I remember pre-server crash I had one pilot in my hub flying primarily Class 1 flights. What fun to fly a 1900 through the mountains on a tight approach at 120 knots :>

With the exception of my 60 hours in Concorde, all the Class 7 flights I've flown don't feel like flying. I don't learn anything. All I get out of them is flying to some distant and sometimes exotic place.

Anyone that flies Class 7 all the time is really robbing themselves of some pretty stunning scenery (esp in FS2004/FS9). I mean, how boring is scenery at 40,000 feet? At least you may see a landmark or two at 25,000 feet

I am curious to see what everyone's opinions are. Comment please if you like.

[EHM-0361 Karsten]

I agree with you when it comes to pilot that only flies those long hauls (have seen a couple of those among the pilot of EGLL, ESSA and EHAM). There is nothing wrong with what they are doing; it's their way of flying. Does that make them expert pilots at flying? Don't think so, mostly it makes them good at handling the "big birds." And once again there is nothing wrong with that.
I haven't done any of the long hauls yet, and won't be doing any or very few (if we are talking 10+ hours.) You see I'm an idiot, if a flight takes 10 hours that's how long I’ll be sitting at my computer. But won’t be doing it in one sitting, it might take four, five or more. But when you look at the bottom line, I will have been sitting there for the whole length of the flight (no time compression.) That’s my way of flying, so I guess on some level I’m an idiot.

[EHM-0695 Scott]

Ah but you are not actually running a flight for 10+ hours. Flight sessions is an interesting concept however, I find it far too time consuming to save the flight and flight plan then restart the flight reload the flight data at a later date (especially if you use a realistic FMC).

I just took the Seneca from Athens to Limnos on the first leg of the Greek Tour. Hand flown no autopilot. I was quite busy for nearly an hour on this simple VFR flight. Adjusting course and trim to maintain my cruise and monitor engine performance is always a challenge even after years of practice. Looking forward to finishing the tour in spirit of the Olympics in Athens starting this weekend.

Time compression is bad. Don't use it. It creates more inconsistency.

[EHM-1343 Jonathan]

I sit down for ages on long haul flights. You need some thing to do whilst flying to keep you occupied, i talk on MSN or read P.C Pilot.
But the furthest I will go is 6 to 8 hours.
Bye Bye;D

[EHM-1328 Willem]

Interesting subject, because Euroharmony permits in the rules flying off-line, pause the flight and resume at a later time.
This is one off the wakest points off euroharmoney because it has nothing to do with real flight.

The same is true for time compression it adds nothing to the flight,
You can choose a shorter destination in realtime with the same time as flight-time after timecompression.

I fly only online and at the moment with a 747-200 from ReadyforPushBack,
1.   with this aircraft you can’t walk away from the cockpit and return for landing.
until now i didn’t carry any passenger, i made a lot off chrashes. (and repairs are very expensive).
2.   if your flying on-line  its against the rules of  IVAO , if you are away and there is a ATC online he can kick you off the server if you don’t contact him..
(btw only a supervisor can kick you off the channel/server.)

If i do long flights (>6hrs) i do this with a group off pilots online, and with voice,
its permittied to go out off the cockpit for 15-30 min. but no longer.
During flight i do Programming work(Delphi) or Aircraft repainting.

The long flights on this moment are only used to increase flight-hours and add nothing to the qualityoff pilots(s).

The flights mentiond by Scott are the real challenge, and if you make this with a cessna/beechraft or B737 its no matter, try realisme setting on 100% and try again, try again over and over until you make no mistakes/chrashes, after this try setting heavy weather(lol)

I’m suggesting  that Euroharmony change the rule that long flights >6 hrs can only be logged and flying on-line and with no time compression.

I can’t vote on the poll because non off the questions is relevant to me.


Willem,  EHM1328


If you think i’m crazy, better ask the question who’s not crazy.
or if you think i'm idiot , you will be a greater idiot.

[EHM-0361 Karsten]

I agree, the real challenges are to be found flying the smaller aircrafts, no question about that.
I wouldn't mind if the rules where change about time compression. But I have to say I would mind the other part of your idea. That would make it impossible for pilots that don't have an internet connection or good enough hardware for on-line flying, to fly some flights of the airline.
Some pilots do all of there flying on-line, I think most do some of there flight on-line. But still some don't fly any flight on-line, either because they can’t or they don’t want to. EHM gives everybody the possibility to choose what suits them best, and that’s one of the things I like about it. I think we should be very careful about changing to many rules. EHM has been around for almost 4 years now, and I think that’s because there isn’t to many rules and the rules are simple, in most cases common sense.

[EHM-1152 Thomas]

I have to disagree that nothing is learnt from flying long haul.  Maybe not as much is learnt than flying smaller aircraft but there are still important lessons.
For example, when landing a 747, you need to touch down right in the middle of the runway due to its size.  For this reason your approach has to be much more precise which is harder to do as with small aircraft you can make a lot more adjustments to get on the right line for landing.
However as I said before there is more to be learnt flying small planes on short flights so I think that the best thing to do is get a fine balance between the two. :>

[EHM-0744 Alex]

I cant vote either... I fly long-haul flights, yes, and have 250 (aproximately) hours, but most of my flying is either tours or short flights around Europe... As far as the expirience thing concerns, you learn from both, the same as you would learn things from flying a helicopter, however I have to say the ultimate challenge is the Concorde, and that is a long range flights aircraft...

Anyway, if you have the rank you can always take the 747 out for a short stride (I did it for a LGAV-LTBA flight), and you can learn the same.

Cheers,

Alex;)

[EHM-0240 Joe]

Originally posted by Alex
Anyway, if you have the rank you can always take the 747 out for a short stride (I did it for a LGAV-LTBA flight), and you can learn the same.

Well... you can't submit that flight to Euroharmony though, class 7 aircraft can only be flown on class 7 flights.

[EHM-0744 Alex]

No, not really, if your rank allows it I believe reading in hte OPS manual that you can use it in any flight that your rank lets you, of course not as realisticly though...

[EHM-0744 Alex]

Aha! Found it, here is the offcial (I think) quote from the OPS manual:

Important notes:

·   A pilot with a certain rank can also fly all planes/flights below his/her rank (e.g. a STC can fly Class 1, Class 2 and Class 3 planes and flights)
·   It is not compulsory (however it’s recommended) to fly a certain flight with the same Class plane, but you can’t fly jets on turboprop flights or turboprops on jet flights. Also, Class 7 planes can be flown only on Class 7 flights. Check section 4.4 for more information.

Woooooops, many sorries, wont do that again... thanks for the correction Joe!;)

[EHM-0240 Joe]

Don't worry about it. It's actually a new rule that I think was only included in ops manual shortly after the crash, so if you haven't read it for a while you weren't to know. Even I don't know all the rules!

[EHM-0962 Zhen Yi]

Time compression i believe is allowed to allow pilots who does not have lots of time on his hand to still enjoy flying his favourite route no matter now long it is.......which makes it one of the stong points of EuroHarmony in attracting and retaining pilots

Restricting the use of time compression does not achieve much as i see it as different people have different idea of how "long" flights are defined. While some people can tolerate 6 hours or more of flying time, some feel that even 2 hours is too long, and restricting it would only prevent the latter from really enjoying the flying experience. Therefore i feel that it would be better for pilots to use their own discretion with regards to the use of time compression

Restricting long flights to online only would cause the routes to become "abandoned" as very few people would be truely willing to fly online for such a period of time. I doubt that most people would even have so much time to commit to long haul flights at one go so that would be an impractical idea

[EHM-1001 Robert]

Well, if you fly a B747 on a short flight with full tank, it is even harder to land than after a long-haul flight with empty tank. Anyway I like long-haul flights and I have 2 reasons:

-Every flight consists of 1 takeoff and 1 landing. The rest of the flight is very easy, even on-line. Therefore I think it does not lower the pilots qualities.  
-When I decide to fly a day, I usually file only 1 PIREP, so it is better to file more hours. With long-haul flights you can gain more flight hours and easily can get a higher rank.

Last time, I flew a long-haul flight, I flew from London to Toronto. I took up at saturday morning, I repaired the flat during flight (painting walls, tiling floors...), and landed in the night. Everybody was happy: I flew, I gain 8 hours, and the flat also gone ahead )

[EHM-0695 Scott]

Time Compression is a great feature for those of us who work 7 days a week and can only spare a few hours but, Euroharmony regulations are very clear about not filing a 8 hour time compressed flight. If you flew an 8 hour flight at 2x time compression you should only be filing a report for 4 hours. This of course, messes up the statistics that management has worked so hard to provide but, that is another topic of discussion;D

Lucky me I have FS on my computer in my office. I fly and work at the same time when I can.

Certainly long haul flights should not be online only. With the exception of Concorde flights, I fly most of my long haul flights offline as I don't like to risk entering airspace with ATC when I am away from the computer.

"-Every flight consists of 1 takeoff and 1 landing."

True, but todays jumbo airliners can do all the work for you *INCLUDING* Takeoff and Landing

Unless you're always flying into Hong Kong's now closed Kai Tak International, any clown (including my 6 yr old neighbour) can land a 747 (virtually of course). A properly programmed FMC can even determine the correct speeds for approach, flare and touchdown, deploy spoilers, engage reverse thrust and apply brakes.

Flying PMDG's 737-700 is flying a computer on my computer. Looks great, sounds authentic and took me a month to master the FMC. It is more exciting to watch an aircraft autoland than it is to disengage autopilot at 200 feet and land manually.

I hope everybody practices a manual ILS in a heavy once in a while! I flew an A340-600 into Frankfurt a while back hand flying the approach. The weather was great I just needed to shake the dust off the flight stick Needless to say I was all over the localizer but the landing was pretty smooth

Took Concorde into Hong Kong (old Kai Tak) last week.... Now that was flying!

[EHM-0361 Karsten]

I agree time compression is a great feature. Even though I wouldn't use it, but that's my decision. In some way I can see it might be looked upon as a strong point of EHM. But if you use the time compression, please remember when use file you're PIREP to tell us (Hub captains and others that check PIREP's) that you have used time compression during you flight.

[EHM-1001 Robert]

Allright, landing and takeoff included in the flight, but I used the word consists, coz the cruising is really not difficult.

I usually turn off autopilot at 2000' before the glide slope and put it down manually. But it looks really nice when the FMC lands a 747

[EHM-0240 Joe]

Regarding the whole business about time compression (this topic seems to have broken up into two different topics), the best solution would be to have something in the PIREP form where you select what time compression you have used. Then the database uses this to credit your pilot profile with only the real hours you flew, but on the flight information the flight still appears as the full time so that statistics are not messed up.

Anyway I shouldn't really suggest it because I don't have a clue how to do it and I don't know if anyone else knows how to.

[EHM-0962 Zhen Yi]

I would suggest that the flight logger record both real world flight time and FS flight time to improve on the accuracy of the flight time. The use of the mode of time compression to calculate this is not accurate as different modes of time compression could be used throughout the entire flight and hence mess up the calculations. If that takes a long time to implement, a temporary solution could be to disregard those PIREPs that included the use of time compression in the calculation of the route statistics etc. The need to provide flight times for both the real world and FS could potentially promote the use of the flight logger as logging flights with the PIREP form would become more of a hassle. On the other hand it could very well promote the rouge input of flight data.....

[EHM-0361 Karsten]

I don't know how much programming it will take, to have that option with the flight logger. But I think it would take a whole lot of changes in the database, to make it posible.

[EHM-0079 Simão]

I like to do some long flights when i need to put the "read on day" :> I choose a nice flight, pick the tristar and enjoy the next 5 hours reading an responding to ATC from IVAO, or to the automated from game.
But usually i prefer flights from 1 hour +/- becouse they give me more the feeling of flying and be "an pilot"
Safe landings!

Simão Oliveira

[EHM-1199 Philip]

I don't fly many long haul flights (indeed, I'm still working my way back up to the really big birds) but when I've got a late night of working or a long day at home I do quite enjoy going for one of these flights. If I fly it I prefer to fly without time compression and get a feel for the whole flight. If time is pressing then time compression is a great tool and I see no problem in using it to get to the hands on part of the flight.

[EHM-0079 Simão]

Originally posted by Plymyphil
If time is pressing then time compression is a great tool and I see no problem in using it to get to the hands on part of the flight.

I remember a topic 1 year ago about time compression, and in my opinion time compression is really bad idea!! Real pilot´s don´t "use it"... right?! So if we wanna FS to be as realistic as possible time compression isn´t the answer...
Just my opinion...
Safe landings,

Simão Oliveira

[EHM-1199 Philip]

By the same argument Turista we would have to say real pilots don't take to the air without proper training. EHM has avoided the overbearing regulations of some VAs who demand a flight video as a test. I think whilst we all get hooked into the whole 'simulation - not a game' thing we have to admit this is a pasttime and to get the buzz we cut corners. Even those of us who use charts for approach and departure probably don't take the time flight planning that would be the case int he real world - reason - we want the buzz of flying. I think its the same with time compression. To get the buzz of the take off and landing, time comp. is almost a necessity for many people who want to fly big iron.

[EHM-1358 Tim]

I dont know if many people knew this, but in long haul flights, theres a pilot called the relief pilot. They take control of the plane for some time. Heres a link to an emaple...Here