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Archive => Other Topics => Old Forum => Crewroom => Topic started by: EHM-1199 Philip on March 04, 2004, 04:19:32 pm

Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-1199 Philip on March 04, 2004, 04:19:32 pm
I'm going to be buying a new computer in the next couple of months to enjoy Euroharmony's new launch with better quality sim experience.

So, which CPU:
P4 3Ghz with HT technology ... or ...
AMD XP3000+

And, which graphics card:
128Mb ATi Radeon 9200 ... or ...
128Mb GeForce FX 5200

Once was a time when I was teccy enough to know but work and life has got in the way and I'm feeling slightly left behind so all advice greatly appreciated.

Also, these CPU and Graphics cards are taken from off the shelf units at PC World. I know ... not the best place to go. If I went to a build what you say guy who has his own shop, what sort of spec. machine would I buy for 900UKP and what features are you folks recommending for a good flight sim experience?

Thanks again for any advice received.

Phil
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-1328 Willem on March 04, 2004, 04:33:56 pm
I used 2 years a AMD, the last XP2000+ with Geoforce. bad performing on heavy applications.

So AMD+Geforce Its a bad combination.

Better is Intel P4 with  ATi 9600XT or SE(cheaper), or Geforce 9600

The Geforce5200 and  ATi9200 are also bad choices.

I use  intel P4-2,6-FSB 800mh, memory 1GB, 2 HDD 120GB. and ATI9600,

The best card is ATI 9800-256 but its expensive.

Willem.
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0240 Joe on March 04, 2004, 04:52:29 pm
Well I've got an AMD XP2800+ with 128mb GeForce4, and I've never had any problems with it. But then I don't exactly use it for anything very demanding. The most demanding thing I probably ever do is fly online in FS2002. So if thats all you will use it for, then AMD plus Geforce is probably ok. If you are going to use it for anything else more demanding then I can't really say.
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-1328 Willem on March 04, 2004, 09:26:48 pm
I will believe that , if i run FS2002 on my old systeem its ok with the framerates.
But if I run FS9 the video card must be capable of dirextX 9. , the cards geforce 5200 and 5400 and ati 9200 and 9400 cant handle directX 9 they have a littlebit  better performance than your Geforce MX4 card and thats not enough with FS9 running PMDG 737 or A320PIC or learjet 60.
There are more things that affect the performance, special in windows XP en FS9.
The Gauges witch are used can make that there is dramatical dropdown of framerate,
The use of real weather and clouds in FS9 will do so to.
Airplanes design with GMAX  perfom also better.
So there is a list off things that what will affect the frame rate/perfomance.

But if you must buy new,  minimum is 128Mb,  capable directX 9, and high ramdac freq.

Willem.
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-1199 Philip on March 04, 2004, 09:49:33 pm
Thanks for the information - this is all good and useful for me.
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0962 Zhen Yi on March 05, 2004, 09:57:02 am
a quick note : I recommand getting the FX series instead of the Geforce(number) series, they are a lot better. ATI cards seem to have more incompatibility problems than compared to the nVidia series.

One last note, the more noteworthy difference between pentiums and AMD produced processors seem to be that the AMD ones have more floating points and threads, and thus function better for mathematical calculations, great if you take part in distributed computing such as the one at Grig.org (http://www.grid.org). However, the pentium 4 is great at multitasking, althought when you want to run a single intensive application only, it would perform better with hyper threading switched off
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0813 Guillermo on March 05, 2004, 01:19:41 pm
My dad promised me a new computer too, but I haven't heard anything about it in months :'( Anyway, I was going to get a Pentium 4 3,2GHz machine. I wouldn't go for the AMD Athlon 3000+ processor, though. It 'only' has a maximum speed of 2,7GHz. Go for the 3,2GHz instead.

Also, go for LOTS of memory. Standard now is 512MB, but I'd go for 1.024 or even 2.048MB. The more RAM, the better.

Finally, don't get the GeForce if you choose Windows XP as your OS. nVidia cards make your system unstable, even with drivers. I myself would go for the ATi Radeon 9800 128 or 256MB. ATi currently offers the most reliable cards available, so I'd definatly get a Radeon card.

That's about it.. don't forget about a DVD drive, CD-RW drive etc etc :P be sure to get a hard drive with 10.000rpm or faster, or it'll take ages to copy big files like .mp3, .wmv and installation of software.
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0962 Zhen Yi on March 05, 2004, 02:55:07 pm
hmm.......i say skip out on the dvd burner as most burners only support a few dvd formats. i would advise waiting a bit more for better ones to come out. Also a 10,000 rmp harddisk may be too expansive for some and such speed is unnecessary for most applications.
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0813 Guillermo on March 05, 2004, 03:18:30 pm
Yep, I would wait for a DVD-RW drive until it has become a market standard. My guesstimate is that it will be in about 2 years from now.
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0079 Simão on March 08, 2004, 12:46:29 am
Well.. i have an AMD XP 2800+ with 512 DDR and an Geforce FX 5200, and i´m plenty sattisfied... Geforce FX 5200 works nice with Directx 9 and XP, and on FS2004 i´m flying at +/- constant 80FPS, with medium-high detail, full ATC, and realistic clouds!! Well and Geforce FX 5200 it´s a really really easy Graphic Card to overclock... from origin the Processor works at 250 mhz and memory at 400... my Geforce FX 5200 it´s now at 300/525 and the improve was great!! Just my testemony!! ;D
(Note: my Geforce FX 5200 it´s an MSI so i don´t talk about other labels)
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0962 Zhen Yi on March 08, 2004, 07:48:37 am
ah MSI.....they churn out great products! i'm planning to get a GeForce FX 5900 from them myself......i would advice not to overclock as it may result in unfortunate destruction of your hardware if not done properly

PS : How's the framerate at full details?
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0765 Sam on March 08, 2004, 09:38:17 am
If it is DDR ram, get 2x512mb Ram, its probably the best format, as it runs quicker from being DDR
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0962 Zhen Yi on March 08, 2004, 01:27:12 pm
or you could also hang in there a bit longer and wait for goodies such as DDR2 and PCI Express to come out in large production. That could make the computers a tad bit expensive but it should be well worth the money for the boost in performance
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-1199 Philip on March 08, 2004, 04:25:56 pm
Thank you all for the advice. AT the moment I am still running FS2002 and the UK VFR scenery. I also install loads of PAI aircraft to get the skys and ATC busy.

PC I bougth this weekend is:
P4 3.2GHz, 512Mb DDR ram, 256Mb Nvidia GEforce 5200 video card, harddrive spins at 7,200rpm. DVD drive with separate DVD burner (+ and -).

I think that's the important aspects of the PC. Crucially though ... I used to get 12-15fps on my old celeron based PC and massive slowdown to almost unplayable 6fps on approach to busy airports like Heathrow. Weather effects on the old PC were impossible unless you like slide shows or only flew very slow aircraft. Now ... whew ... am I satisfied. With all sliders to the right and decent cloud cover and rain etc, I have locked the fps to forty and it hovers around the 40fps consistently. Massive difference and the game is once again coming to life.

Thanks again for all the advice received here.

Phil
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0962 Zhen Yi on March 09, 2004, 12:30:10 pm
Cool! with such a high fps i'll be looking towards to building my own computer at the end of this year!

At the DVD burner point, you mean to say that you bought two burners? Your computer must have cost a bomb with those and the 3.2GHz processor!
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-1199 Philip on March 09, 2004, 07:47:23 pm
Nope ... just one burner but I am assured it will do +veand -ve. Don't even know what that means at the moment having only recently got to grips with burning CDs. The PC cost 999UKP which is I think a fair price for a reasoable spec.

Phil
Title: What is the difference
Post by: Evy on March 15, 2004, 11:37:08 am
Indeed AMD seems to loose a bit of its reputation as their performance does not always correspond to reality.

For graphic cards, ATI is one of the best for the moment.
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0079 Simão on March 15, 2004, 10:02:54 pm
Quote
Originally posted by EHM-0962
PS : How's the framerate at full details?


At full details +/- 20 FPS (London Area, ATC at 100%, all at max) if i choose detailed clouds... simple clouds run up 30 FPS!! But i don´t fly aleays at full, i prefer get better FPS and reduce detail! ;D
Safe landings,

Simão Oliveira
Euroholidays Manager
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0079 Simão on March 15, 2004, 10:07:18 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Evy
Indeed AMD seems to loose a bit of its reputation as their performance does not always correspond to reality.
For graphic cards, ATI is one of the best for the moment.


Basing my opinion on reviews and personal experience i think that AMD has a really better price/quality relationship,  and since AMD K6-III AMD and Intel are playing very very equal... I prefer AMD and i don´t change but it´s a matter of choise. In graphic cards it´s fact that ATI it´s "knoking down" Nvidia chips... :@ but in terms of overclock ATI is really hard to change, Nvidia is more easy! :P
Safe landings,

Simão Oliveira
Euroholidays Manager
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0962 Zhen Yi on March 16, 2004, 03:57:57 am
Now that's some performance! i'll be expecting no troubles with my new computer this year end!
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-1123 Dejan on March 16, 2004, 08:38:39 am
Well, the basic difference between AMD and Intel chips, is heat management.
AMD T-bred chips and latest Barton chips don;t even need any additional coolers.
Intel instead, should be provided with a Tornado at least.
Also AMD's model number naming, instead of Intel's BUS frequency naming, creates some confusion to new buyers. So people compare AMD +2500 price, with Intel 2.5, which are far different.

As for graphics, ATI and Nvidia have different customer targets in market. So to speak, they don't go into each other's way. ATI targets professionals with requirements in OpenGL, ultra stability, and with no need to overclock:P
Nvidia is more D3D than GL, so gamers all prefer GFX, which is better than ATI when used that way.
I am Intel fan personally, but AMD and ATI user since last winter. And have no complaints.
Cheers
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0765 Sam on March 16, 2004, 07:49:28 pm
I get an average of 14-18 on my 1.2ghz, and about 4 at EGLL,im gonna get at least a XP2800
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0635 Nitzan on April 12, 2004, 02:56:03 am
I'm planning to buy this computer...suggestions:
Intel P4 3.0 Ghz
GForce FX5600XT 256MB
HD 120 GB (7200RPM)
sound card with 6 channels onboard
what do you guys think?
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0962 Zhen Yi on April 12, 2004, 08:55:22 am
From what i can see, you should be able to achieve between decent and great performance with FS2004.......should have no problem with lots of ai planes as well as some sceneries....but if you want to have lots of add on sceneries, i suggest you get a better graphics card
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0588 Paul on April 12, 2004, 09:39:15 am
I have frame rates 28-30 with a system less than that.
I think with that system you can set all sliders to the max with no problem.
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0813 Guillermo on April 12, 2004, 11:13:17 am
Quote
Originally posted by Willem de GraafThe best card is ATI 9800-256 but its expensive.


I went for the 9600SE instead, because the 9800 would be more powerful thn my entire machine :o the 9800 is only for faster 2,0GHz+ machines.
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-1199 Philip on April 12, 2004, 11:19:38 am
How much would I pay for this? Would it be a huge improvement over my GForce 5200 256Mb?
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-1199 Philip on April 12, 2004, 08:12:36 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Turista
Well.. i have an AMD XP 2800+ with 512 DDR and an Geforce FX 5200, and i´m plenty sattisfied... Geforce FX 5200 works nice with Directx 9 and XP, and on FS2004 i´m flying at +/- constant 80FPS, with medium-high detail, full ATC, and realistic clouds!! Well and Geforce FX 5200 it´s a really really easy Graphic Card to overclock... from origin the Processor works at 250 mhz and memory at 400... my Geforce FX 5200 it´s now at 300/525 and the improve was great!! Just my testemony!! ;D
(Note: my Geforce FX 5200 it´s an MSI so i don´t talk about other labels)


So, I got a GeForce 5200FX installed in my system, can I overclock it reasonably safely and how would I go about doing this?
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0635 Nitzan on April 13, 2004, 07:46:12 am
What is the difference (if there is any) between the GeForce cards and Radeon? Which one is better for playing games? if i take both on the same price scale.
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0962 Zhen Yi on April 13, 2004, 08:21:26 am
For overclocking it's best to consult people over at other technical forums such as the one on MSI's website.......they provide great tips and instructions on how to overclock reasonably well.....

As i remember, nVidia cards should be easier to overclock than compared to the Radeon cards. However both types of cards are priced rather competitively. Even so the top Radeon cards tend to me more expensive that nVidia's cards......(please correct me if i'm wrong! :P )
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0813 Guillermo on April 13, 2004, 05:10:16 pm
Quote
Originally posted by EHM635
What is the difference (if there is any) between the GeForce cards and Radeon? Which one is better for playing games? if i take both on the same price scale.


definatly Radeon, but be sure to make the right choice. There are several Radeons available today. For the lower end computers (800MHz~1600MHz), the Radeon 9600SE and 9800 are good enough. But if you want brute strength to go with your high end system (2,0GHz~3,2GHz) you may want to go for the Radeon 9800PRO or 9800XI. The XI is with €499,- the most expensive card.
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0654 Murray on April 13, 2004, 07:46:04 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Gizmo2k4
definatly Radeon, but be sure to make the right choice...<snip> The XI is with €499,- the most expensive card.

Until of course the next generation ATI cards start shipping (probably next month...) ;D

nVidia will get the "Fastest..." crown back (but not by very much if the most recent benchmarks I've seen are to be believed) and with any luck the pricing on the current top-end cards should drop almost straight away; the higher end nVidia NV40-based card is due to cost $399 (US at a guess) at release.
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-1199 Philip on April 13, 2004, 08:57:24 pm
For those that want to know, the overclocking of nvidia seems fairly painless once you have the coolbits registry edit downloaded. It even has an automatic feature to detect the best overclock which worked fine and found me an extra fifty Hz or so on processor and memory speed.
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0079 Simão on April 19, 2004, 12:35:26 am
Quote
Originally posted by Plymyphil
So, I got a GeForce 5200FX installed in my system, can I overclock it reasonably safely and how would I go about doing this?


Well, overclock an Geforce Fx5200 it´s really easy and +/- safe if you don´t "push real high" the chip! First depends of the label of your Geforce... if it´s an MSI, like mine, there´s Software from MSI with the board CD-Rom that allows you to change speeds very very easily... if the label it´s other than MSI, download the software "GeForceTweakUtility" and you will be able to change the speed of core and mem!
On case of MSI, if you don´t change the original cooler of the card, don´t go more far than CPU - 300 Mhz and Mems - 470 Mhz... if you upgrade the fan, to one of good quality and speed, like me, you could push at leat CPU - 375 Mhz and Mems - 650 Mhz... The improve it´s really significativ and the graphics really better!
But to overclock don´t forget, use a quality fan, and if the label of your card it´s not very trustable (i just trust completely on Asus, MSI, Powercolor and Chaintec) don´t push very mush, becouse you can damage forever your card! :@
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0962 Zhen Yi on April 19, 2004, 09:43:56 am
Does MSI sell other fans besides the one already on the card? I dont remember seeing any........
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0079 Simão on April 19, 2004, 04:27:53 pm
As i know MSI don´t sell fans to their cards... but  in shops specializeds in Overclocking and PC´s you will find a lot of fans that are designed to that!  Be sure that the fan that you buy is compatible with your graphic card model!
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0654 Murray on April 19, 2004, 04:38:33 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Turista
As i know MSI don´t sell fans to their cards... but  in shops specializeds in Overclocking and PC´s you will find a lot of fans that are designed to that!  Be sure that the fan that you buy is compatible with your graphic card model!
But, MSI are one of the few manufacturers that deliberately overspec their fans... have you seen the beautiful monster(s... there's a fan on either side of the card) they have on the GFX5950?
Title: What is the difference
Post by: EHM-0962 Zhen Yi on April 20, 2004, 01:24:17 pm
Yeah. It's pretty large and appears to work rather well going by the comments in their forums........