ProPilot criteria for penalties

[EHM-0471 Peter]

I agree 100% with the sentence that after the first flight on ProPilot you'll never be the same. No doubts, I am infected definitively!!!

But something really bothers me all the time. By my oppinion it should be very helpful if somebody would announce and explain all the criteria in the use of penalty system. Just to understand what I have in mind: what is the maximum climb rate ( or descending rate ) - 1000 ft, 1500 ft or 1800 ft etc.
This should help a lot, because you know then exactly the limits you are not allowed to overcome.

Peter

[EHM-1671 Ben]

ProPilot will give you a penalty only once you exceed 4500fpm in either a climb or descent. Any less than that will not be penalized by ProPilot, as far as I know.

[EHM-1703 Philip]

Peter,

Click HERE for a full list of penalties that you can get on PP. Ben is correct although you can get penalties for exceeding G force limits by making sharp changes in direction even if you do not exceed 4500fpm in climb or descent.

Hope this helps,

[EHM-0948 Bruno]

Hi,

Just to enrich Philip's words, you can go to the PRoPilot section, on the "Pilot's Lounge" there is a link there for all the penalties.


Regards,

[EHM-1821 Javier]

Hi,

11 Touchdown Vertical Speed more than 250 feet/min 220.00 You landed with a high vertical speed. Try landing more softly

is this penalty active? i did a -280ft/min landing at LOWI and no penalties...

[EHM-0471 Peter]

Thank you guys for all the informations. I understand all the penalties and their mining. But I do not understand the following:

today I flew Tu 204 from LGAV to LEBL. I was very carefull all the time, especially on descent, so I flew from FL 120 down to 10.000 feet and lower with the speed 190 kts on speedometer and flaps on 5 dgr, all with the intention to be SLOW! And after landing I sent the Pirep to EHM and got 150.00 penalty for 280 kts overspeed below FL 100. How is this possible? ATC controller even pressed me to fly a bit faster. So, what is wrong here?

Peter

[EHM-2089 Vincent]

Hi Peter,

Well I haven't yet been a victim of overspeed as yet, but I guess the penalty for overspeed at 280 kts below FL100 came to you because the IAS might have read much lower than 250 while the real ground speed might have been higher. Have a look at your GPS window, you will be able to see your Ground speed there too. Speeds also vary depending on QNH settings.

I do remember seeing many a time my approach at times to be higher than 250 kts when in reality my Airspeed shows much less than 250, somewhere around 230 at times.

One more thing that I would like to add is to reach the FL100 much before the airport, say atleast around 30 miles out, that would give you enough time to descent slowly towards the airport thus avoiding speed penalty just in case you tend to dip your plane a bit faster to get your landing altitude correct.

Happy flying and hope this helps.
Vincent

[EHM-1617 Iain]

Flight Logger reads the IAS directly from FS, so shouldn't be affected by groundspeed. I'm sure you have Peter, but can you just check that you have FS set to show IAS rather than TAS?

A rough and ready way to calculate descent point is:

( <altitude in 1000's of feet> x 3 ) + a few miles = TOD point in track nm from airport

If you have an FMC, use that, or use the freeware vasFMC.

[EHM-2089 Vincent]

Thanks Iain, for the correction of my comments. Sorry on giving in wrong info on this post.

[EHM-1242 Stef]

Hello gentlemen,

Undoubtably a lot of words have been said and discussed already about the ProPilot penalty thing. If you dont mind, would like to add some more.

Just checked out the penalties list which was linked to above (dont know however if that one is current). Few things struck me as being strange:

ID 1 : Engines ON and at least one door open
Now, correct me if i'm wrong but we have in the fleet ATR72's as well. For as far as i know these are not equipped with APU's, but instead use a system to brake the propeller of the right(?) engine so that the engine can run, providing the aircraft with power and air without blowing everybody away (or worse...). How should this work under PP when i can't run the engine(s)?

ID 2 : Engines ON and strobe light not turned on
In my opinion the strobe light (together with landing lights and TCAS) should first be switched on (or set to mode C) when entering the runway after receiving respective clearance from ATC. Beacon lights on engine start, yes. Strobes not for as far as i know.

ID 14 : 280kn overspeed below FL100
In airspace which adhere's to the ICAO regulations the ATC controller has the freedom to assign airspeeds above the normal airspeed restrictions when requested. For heavy aircraft (capable of MTOW in excess of 275.000 lbs, or was it 300.000?) the restriction is often lifted. Personally feel more comfy while climbing in the 747-400F with a TOW of 872.000 lbs with a bit more momentum behind me (if i'm not mistaken my advised climb speed was 283 KIAS). Load her up to the max, check the FMC advised climb speed and you'll see what i mean (but i guess am not the first to mention this issue...)

ID 16 : Altimeter not set to standard passing FL180
Hello! Where are we here..? Isn't there enough 'americanism' in the world already!?

Have been discussing the matter of PP yes or no with my brother who did quite a bit of PP flying himself (Niels, EHM-1592). Yet am still wondering about one thing though:

With PP as it is now you are trying to "capture the entire fleet into one set of numbers" as i see it. However in my opinion, because PP can only be used with the FLogger, you already know which aircraft(-type) we are flying for a particular PP flight. Why then only one set of 'restrictions' for the entire fleet to live by!?

As the aircraft being used is known already, a flight therefore technically should in the end be judged against a set of restrictions and/or penalties specific for that aircraft type (where for example the ID 1 engine restriction does not apply for an ATR 72, or the ID 14 speed restriction does not apply to heavies).

Think that would make the system more 'life-like', so to say, and more like a real-life airline operates.

Best regards,
Stef
EHM-1242