Author Topic: New FAC algorithm to enter as soon as possible.  (Read 27933 times)

Offline EHM-1703 Philip

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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2007, 06:03:17 pm »
@ Jim -  please do not take my comment out of context...... Yes flying a  plane full of pax in busy airspace for 1 or 2 hours is not a "no brainer" and I agree it is challenging. Flying a 747 full of pax on a busy NAT  for 7 hours constantly monitoring fuel use EGT, VIB and the likes is just as challenging only 3 to 6 times longer! (Most RW airlines renumerate long haul captains better than short haul captains, there is a reason for this IMHO) We are not merely penalising somebody for flying 1 or 2 hours a week........ Please do not only see the negative side of this, we are rewarding the Pilot who flies for 10 or 12 hours a week........ There are two sides to this coin and the balance has been tipped in favour of one side for a long time, we are merely trying to even it up.

Quote
Originally posted by EHM-1500 Jim There seem to have been a number of management decisions in recent months that have punished those of us who dont have a huge amount of time.....if this is going to turn into a regular occurence then the VA will have gone down in my asteem.  


You have mail, I do not want to enter this converstaion in the forum as I do think it will produce a meaningfull result and I do not have the intelligence to win therefore, I admit defeat and respectfully surrender now!

@Miko (and others) -  We ARE trying to encourage the use of online flying and ProPilot..... Unless I am mistaken though, we have in no way said that you can not fly for EHM unless you use PP or fly on a network merely that if you choose to add realism or whatever you want to call it then you will be rewarded.... Never forget though, you can still fly how you want and when you want as we will allways maintain a roster system that is far more leniant than most if not all other major VA's

@ Karsten -
Quote
Originally posted by EHM-0361 Karsten
Quote
Originally posted by EHM-1703 Philip Firstly, I agree, long haul flyers do have a tendency to overnight and leave the controls, but if you do that on PP you do so at your own risk, too many variables can occur that result in crashes and or penalties.


If what our CEO here is saying is the company policy. Then perhaps it time for me to pack it in. And I mean especially when we are talking PP I'm asking myself isn't PP suppose to simulate the real thing. I really hope this wasn't meant the way it came out. I would really like to believe that when someone fly for 8 - 10 hours, that they do it and are not sleeping, in school/at work or something like that.


The quote above merely means that I know it happens, I can not stop happening under our liberal system but we do not encourage it!!!! Company policy remains unchanged and you will all be welcome to comment if and when company policy ever changes. (not planned at this time, we have far too many other things to do first!)

I hope this clarifies my opinion, keep the discussion going, your input is important and this topic has opened my eyes to how things are percieved, I honestly had no idea! :$
Phil Nutt EHM 1703
 

Offline EHM-0005 Maarten

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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2007, 06:40:21 pm »
Dear friends,

As a long time member of the airline, I always had and have my eyes on the decisions of the management. In the MT, both the subjects "online flying encouraging" and "propilot encouraging" have been discussed. My point of view is that encouraging is fine, but over-encouraging/pushing is wrong. With his in mind, I adviced the management on this matter.

When I review the current situation I can only conclude that no one is forced in any way to fly online or to use ProPilot. To be honest, I never fly online and I barely use ProPilot :$ , but I never feel pushed :).

About the formula. With every change, some people will like it and some people don't like it. We all make our flights in different ways (long flights, shorts flights, different aircraft), so we all have different personal requirements to the formula. Personally, I think this formula can keep things in balance.

If you ask a person why he likes EuroHarmony, he'll most likely answer that the open community attracts him. An open community that allows the members to come up with suggestions and comments (both positive and negative). All our posts are being read by the management and they take them in account when making decisions. This also counts for the new FAC algorithm. If the new formula turns out to be less effective than the MT expected then the MT will take a look at it and improve it. That's why the opinions of the whole community are important!

Regards,

Maarten

p.s. And why should be afraid of bad FAC scores? Fly your plane right and you'll have nice scores. No matter what formula is being used :)

EHM-1343 Jonathan

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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2007, 08:03:16 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by EHM-0005 Maarten
p.s. And why should be afraid of bad FAC scores? Fly your plane right and you'll have nice scores. No matter what formula is being used :)


Exactly, the Idea of ProPilot is to help improve your flying skills...
And anyways, chances are that Bruno will be at the bottom so at least you will be above someone!!;) just kidding mate...you're a good pilot inside...

Good to see a nice lively debate here...Give me a few hours while I think of something to contribute to this discussion...

Offline EHM-1651 Christian

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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2007, 09:18:25 pm »
I understand that some will not gain any advantages of this new FAC calculation, and get hard feelings abou that. Myself included since I doesn't fly much longhaul it will not gain me in any way. I think the MT idea was not to decrease your joy of flying. It rather to increse it. However instead of "going for the MT's throat" wich doesn't do any good, a better idea might be to give the MT your opinions and suggestions for any improvements that you feel would gain Euroharmony.

This would let us keep our advantage as a openminded including VA.
The only thing this going into the throat's of each other contributes to is:
Keeping members away from the forum and make a more closed society.

Myself would not like to enter these discussions as a new member of EuroHarmony, if my only possibilty is to join a fight over an issue I really don't know anything about.

Let at least the new FAC calculation get a month or two, before we hammer it down.
The MT deserves that, after all they spend a lot of time letting us have fun.
I'm sure if the FAC calculations have room for improvements it will be corrected.
Working on projects like this often make you have tunnelvision, not seeing all the possibilies when making something.
Therefore I think it's our job as members of the airline to give our opinion not to blast the idea out of the sky.

"A pilots ego equals the wingspan"
So if everyone starts flying class one the probem is solved:s

Despite of this new FAC calcultion, I hope that we can still enjoy ourselves here at Euroharmony
EHM-1651 CHRISTIAN BAKKE "A pilots ego equals the wingspan" Stated by a Captain of Widerøe

EHM-1908 Steve

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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2007, 02:28:39 pm »
Would it be in any way possible to take into account the cost of a lost aircraft.For example a larger penalty for the loss of say a 747 and a smaller penalty for a B1900D.Perhaps this could be used in conjunction with the aircraft catagories.

Steve

Offline EHM-0005 Maarten

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« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2007, 02:36:50 pm »
Bruno is the man to reply to this, but he's not available at this moment. More news about this soon...

EHM-1617 Iain

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« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2007, 03:51:02 pm »
I have been following this topic with interest. I read all of the banter, but I decided that instead of fuelling the fire with talk, I would instead fuel it with some thick, dense, boring analysis of the new FAC algorithm :P

General

We can break the algorithm into two parts, additions and deductions.

Additions:

Total flights - the number of flights you have done is divided by 2
Total online flights - the number of online flights you have done is multiplied by 0.9
Total minutes - total minutes flown multiplied by 0.3

Deductions:

Total extra penalties - the ones you get for crashing, multiplied by 0.7, i.e. 700 per crash
Total penalties

The only ones which are big enough to really make a difference are the Total Minutes addition, the Total Extra Penalties deduction, and the Total Penalties deduction.

Per-flight

Let's look at the algorithm on a per-flight basis.


Flight 1. Imagine a 2 hour PP flight on IVAO. I get 0.5 points for doing the flight at all. I get 0.9 points for doing it online. I get 36 points for flying for 120 minutes. Total additions: 37.4 points. Now the deductions: Say that I exceeded 4500 FPM in the climb. I get 240 penalty points. For this flight, my FAC has now been reduced by 202.6 points, even though the flight was of moderate length, online, and there was only one fault registered by the system - which may well have had more to do with the aircraft type, it may well have been a quick climber - than the pilot's skill.


Flight 2. This flight will be a very long-haul flight. It is 9 hours long, online. 0.5 points for flying, 0.9 points for online.  162 points for flying for flying for 9 hours. There were no penalties. 163.4 points were added to my FAC.


Flight 3. Now let's imagine a flight the other end of the scale. A 45 minute offline flight. Again, I get 0.5 points for flying. I get 13.5 points for flying for 45 minutes. Total of 14 points gained. The flight went very badly. I stalled the aircraft, and exceeded the G-force penalty on landing. A total of 730 points worth of penalties. Net score: 716 points are deducted from the FAC.

Here's the bombshell. Imagine on the very same flight I crashed the aircraft. No other bonuses or penalties are given in the event of a crash (I believe). I would have 700 points deducted from my FAC (1000*0.7). Thus, it would have done less bad to my FAC if I had crashed the aircraft than if I landed hard and stalled during the flight.

Conclusion

I think the figures above speak for themselves. In flight 1, which was not all that bad, I was penalised 202.6 points. Flight 2, which was excellent, I gained not as much as I lost before, only 163.4 points. Flight 3 was terrible. I was penalised 716 points. But, had I crashed, I would only have been penalised 700 penalty points.

My Opinion

Although I recognise that the MT have put a lot of work towards it, I am opposed to this system. I believe it is much too heavy on individual penalties, not heavy enough on crashes, and that the 'bonuses' received for doing lots of flights, long flights, or online flights are so small as to be ineffective. However, I don't see it as a lost cause. With some major tweaking, the values can be evened out, and I believe that it has the potential to become a very fair way of doing things. With the system as it is, many, if not most of us will be well into the 'red'.

I recognise also that it is very very difficult, if not impossible, to create a FAC algorithm that everybody likes; however, I think that what is been proposed is not the best solution to the difficult problem.

If anyone feels I have made a mistake here, please do not hesitate to correct me. As far as I can see though, my analysis is correct.

EHM-1947 Miko

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« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2007, 04:05:16 pm »
Is this supposed to be a Virtual Airline or a Virtual Academy for mathematic studies ;)

Tastes a little bit like achievement control and not like "harmony". Good to know that it is only one department of EuroHarmony.

EHM-1617 Iain

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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2007, 04:11:20 pm »
LOL, I was bored. But hopefully you get my point ;)

EHM-1947 Miko

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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2007, 04:26:30 pm »
Yes, of course, Iain, it helps to show the lacks of the system - I am sure it would help to integrate Einstein's antigravity constant - provided that it is compatible with FSUIPC 3.7 :]

(Sorry to all who are tired of my jokes about this topic - this was definetily the last :s)

Offline EHM-1001 Robert

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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2007, 07:13:07 pm »
Very nice conclusion there Iain ;) I think you are right, maybe the scalers are need to be analized ans maybe increased/decreased but I would say lets give it a try first.

I think the only mistake in the anlysis is that you always got penalty points ! If I look at the ACARS sometimes, I can see that most of the flights that have been done were not penalized at all. And maybe this is the positive thing in the system. I mean, if you do your job perfectly, you gain only relatively small scores, but if you made something wrong, you got relatively high deduction. And I think this will not let anybody to break out from the average. But lets see, how the numbers are performed in reality.

The good thing is, your flight records will remain the same regardless the FAC score. If we feel that the sytem needs to be modernized to reach HARMONY ;D , it can be done easily with changing some factors "only", and the system will recalculate the new points automatically. ;)

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EHM-1328 Willem

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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2007, 10:29:30 pm »
The calculations Ian made are correct , also the conclusion to crash your plane if there are more the  700 penalty’s is right,  leave crash penalty on 1000, and in new version off propilot take out the penalty message on screen from propilot  and make also not visible in acars screen, make them only visible after the pirep is send.(there must maybe crypting be done)

The system has lack off one thing and that’s there are no bonus points if there is a zero penalty flight,  compare it with your work if you do a good job you get paid for it.
These bonus points are needed because if a pilot say makes 2-3 or even more crashes he will end  in a very large negative number and with no bonus points it will take a longtime and many zero penalty flights to become ever on the positive side, and at the end he/se will do no longer do any propilot flights.
And  Suggest also to make the factor for online 1.2 because a factor off 0.9 has little effect in the total calculation.

Example-1
Example-2
Example-3        (full screen)
The total time in the exampel is restrictid to less then 24 hours because off the extra programming in exel for times >24h.


Rgrds  EHM1328-Willem

Offline EHM-1001 Robert

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« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2007, 12:19:32 am »
Again, I think quite bad examples...too much short flights.

Let me introduce my PP career from the view of both calculations. ;)

The story in numbers
At the beginning my FS was quite unstable for some reason and I did not like to fly on PP, but did some flights. It was quite mixed: short-middle-long flights. I collected a lot of penalties, once almost crashed a plane, at that time my FAC was around 300 and I felt very bad, that how is it possible I am so bad ! Then came the US Airmail event which changed the scene a lot... I expected the event, with relatively short and easy flights, lots of possibilities for zero FAC flights ;) After it I made a little off-track with some extra-long flights, some penalties and oh my God...my first crash ! Without it, I could get around 350 by the new system, but now I cant push the score too much, just below 80 points...

I did not do a lot of online flights, but you can see it does not count as much as you worried about ;) What count is to collect more time, and avoid crash, which is a nightmare, not only in your career, but in your score as well.

My dream was always to get inside top 10 during my PP career, which I could never reach, but I think even with this negative score, I could get in now according to the new system. And do not panic, if your score would be even too low, then maybe PP is not your business and it is time to practice your skills with the offline system.

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EHM-1199 Philip

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« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2007, 09:24:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by EHM-1001 Robert

Anyway, I think that long flights count a little more, because you may leave the cockpit for minutes, hours, even though you spent more time with flying, you dedicate more time and more energy to EuroHarmony. It is not a cheating.


I fear you may be slightly lax with the rules Robert ... you and many others and maybe we should change the rules or start expecting them to be followed ... we do have a number of pilots who fly ludicrous hours...some are putting in well over 50 hours in a week!!

Under paragraph 4.7 - flying online it states:

"You should not leave your computer while flying online,"

Seems quite clear to me.

The rules in the EHM regulations (paragraph 4.6 if you wanna check) state:

"On long flights, check at least every 10-15 minutes the status of the plane" - clearly there is no system in place to check this and consequently many pilots fly hours of flights without being there. Don't know where the line should be drawn cos it would be fairly daft to expect folks to be infront of their PC all the time but such are the current rules.

EHM-1199 Philip

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« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2007, 09:33:34 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by EHM-1500 Jim

There seem to have been a number of management decisions in recent months that have punished those of us who dont have a huge amount of time.....if this is going to turn into a regular occurence then the VA will have gone down in my asteem. When i first joined this VA over 2 years ago it was very much open to all with no judgement of how much flying you did or how good you were - beginners to experts, short haul to long haul, all were encouraged. Now it seems i have to fly every day, for many hours in order to be considered a good EHM pilot - well rubbish to that i say and i hope that is not what management are wanting to achieve.
I dont use pro-pilot much these days so i guess it wont affect me much. Why not? Well, i base my flights around on-line ATC on IVAO and 9 times out of 10 there isnt a plane at the airport i want. I was also sick of getting penalties for excessive rate of climb and descent with the pmdg 737 whilst it is flying in VNAV mode.


The whole Pro-Pilot thing from my experience tonight seems hideously buggy Jim. I'm tempted to agree with you...I've flown with EHM for years but Pro-Pilot seems a headache too far. My FAC is already a made up number based on a false crash report from the US Air Pioneers event and now I have another false crash!! I log on at the end of the day to unwind after a day's work and enjoy thte experience...seems a bit daft to be accepting stress from one's hobby. Interested to hear what other folk feel. EHM is a great VA ... no doubt, but for me Pro-Pilot needs more work before its ready and the whole drive for extra hours seems unnecessary. The point is to get online and enjoy the flying experience. Just an opinion but glad to see that Jim seems to share it too and it's not only me questionning some of this stuff.

Offline EHM-1703 Philip

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« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2007, 10:38:49 pm »
Again, I fear I am throwing fuel on a fire but.......

Philip,

I will try and address your comments and concerns, please don't feel that I am flaming you or your ideas, I am just answering your posts.....

First Post

I will try to clarify what I posted earlier in this topic.... We know the rules, we are not going to change the rules, we know people do not abide by all the rules. Our liberal system of reporting allows for the breaking of these rules but to remove the liberalism would affect too many people in a negative way and reduce the flexibility that attracts many people to our airline.

If you have conclusive proof that somebody is not abiding by the rules, please feel free to contact your Hub manager or any member of the MT and we will take action. I racked up many hours for the airline when I was working from home and could fly long haul and work at my desk at the same time so please do not throw accusations around that can not be substantiated, it will only alienate other members, this sort of thing should be done in private please!

Second Post
ProPilot is called that for a reason...... It was never intended to be easy!!!! If you want to come home after a hard day at work and fly for fun, then please feel free to fly a tour or a mission or just a regular scheduled flight, file the pirep on the website or with the flogger and have a great deal of fun while you are doing it!!!!

If you want to add a bit more excitement to it and fly on the edge of your seat then use ProPilot..... No one is saying that we are going to switch to this system exclusively and certainly no one is saying the sytem is perfect! That is why we are making changes now and we will continue to do so for the foreseable future. ProPilot has been a huge investment of effort and will not be shelved. It was introduced to offer a system and a way of flying that was not being operated by other virtual airlines. Of course we want everyone to use it...... By the same token, of course we are always going to be aware that people dislike it or don't want to use it, that is why we still have manual Pirep Validation and a normal flight system, so people can fly as and when they want to.

In general to all
Whichever way you fly, all pilots are welcome here and you WILL NOT be judged a better or worse EHM pilot whichever way you fly.

Please, if you have a constructuve point to make about the proposed FAC, please make it in this topic. If you have genuine concerns about ProPilot or any other system or person at EHM then please start a new topic or email relevant member(s) of the MT with them.

The long and the short of it is...... Some members of the MT have invested a considerable amount of their own time trying to improve ProPilot and for that matter many other parts of the airline, by posting damning comments about this work you will undoubtedly reduce the amount of development that takes place and that will not be a good thing for any of us!

Lastly, I am getting the impression that some people are not happy here or with the way things are developing???? Please, if you have concerns, ideas and input or if you feel that you could be a valuable addition to the MT, then email Myself or Bruno or any member of the MT you feel comfortable contacting. We are open to your input. We have a growing community of pilots and it is our aim to grow further!

Thank you all for flying with EHM, it is your airline, help us to make it grow!
Phil Nutt EHM 1703
 

EHM-1199 Philip

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« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2007, 11:04:41 pm »
Really not trying to alienate other members by throwing around unsubstantiated accusations. Quite the opposite...I quoted a comment from a person that substantiated the fact that some EHM members choose to fly while not infront of PC. Fine ... doesn't bother me but feel if that is the case, why not relax the rules and make it OK rather than having rules that we ignore. Same is true of the whole online thing.

I appreciate Pro-Pilot must be some considerable feat of coding and is unique to EHM but having sat in front of a PC where after nearly an hours flight the situation reset and pro-pilot falsly reported a crash I think I'm entitled to be a tad ticked off - especially as flying on pro-pilot was the only way to take part in this event. That's thirteen evenings towards a now unobtainable goal...that or somebody resets my score manually...thereby kind of negating the point of pro-pilot in the first place.

I'm not unhappy with how things are developing. I do feel however that there is an exclusivity around what is still a 'buggy' pro-pilot. In the days prior to pro-pilot we had events that had times on them and came through divisions. This gave folks who had completed tours but still wanted rewarding challenges something else to do. Now, the prime effort is on pro-pilot events which would be just fine if the system was faultless.

Please don't doubt my appreciation for the work that folks do for EHM and the enjoyment it gives but in this case I think it's entirely reasonable to question these issues. Why are events only flyable on pro-pilot? Is this a benefit to the users of the VA or just a coercing of folks into using pro-pilot?

So, coming back to the proposed FAC changes ... my comment was implicit in my previous post: If it encourages pilots to ignore the rule book and leave the PC unattended for hours what is the point? Sure, EHM gets more hours racked up but is this a real reflection of dedication? And the FAC if it does what was sold initially to members should reflect pilot skill. It should reward take offs and landings therefore and not autopliot unattended flights. Just an opinion ... like to hear what others think.

Offline EHM-1001 Robert

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« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2007, 11:41:49 pm »
Hi Philip,

I would like to clarify my quoted sentence above: you are simply right, and that is a fact ;)

You cannot leave the cockpit while flying online, but that is not even an EHM rule...it is a rule of IVAO/VATSIM. If you do not follow it, they will simply ban you from the network for days...so EHM is not necessary to check that at all.

While during offline flights, there is not a rule for that. Also, you can use time accelerations to shorten the time you spend in front of the PC. I do not know others habits of flying long-hauls, the most cases I leave the cockpit occasionally for minutes/hours, but many cases I am watching TV, or working at the desk with the headset continously on my ear. I guess the other long-hauler pilots do the same, and it is not against rules, while you fly offline.

About the buggy pro-pilot, FS is a giant application that can fill around 1GB of RAM, with thousands of small individual programs running together, and you cannot blame on Pro-Pilot only if your system is unstable. And I even did not mention that if you got a crash that you have not deserve, and it is able to follow on the ACARS, then you will get back the plane and the penalty ;) You do not need to worry about it.

You are also right, that the number of landings is important, that is why the number of flights is considered in the FAC score, maybe a larger scaler would be better ;) But I hope you agree with me that a longer flight needs more time and more energy than a short one. As we cannot check if you spend all your time in the cockpit, neither we want to say anybody that he is a cheater by default, we need to consider in the FAC that the longer flights counts more.

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Offline EHM-1703 Philip

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« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2007, 12:14:03 am »
Quote
Originally posted by EHM-1199 Philip
I appreciate Pro-Pilot must be some considerable feat of coding and is unique to EHM but having sat in front of a PC where after nearly an hours flight the situation reset and pro-pilot falsly reported a crash I think I'm entitled to be a tad ticked off - especially as flying on pro-pilot was the only way to take part in this event. That's thirteen evenings towards a now unobtainable goal...that or somebody resets my score manually...thereby kind of negating the point of pro-pilot in the first place.


Please see Bruno's post: Here

Quote
Originally posted by EHM-1199 Philip
I'm not unhappy with how things are developing. I do feel however that there is an exclusivity around what is still a 'buggy' pro-pilot. In the days prior to pro-pilot we had events that had times on them and came through divisions. This gave folks who had completed tours but still wanted rewarding challenges something else to do. Now, the prime effort is on pro-pilot events which would be just fine if the system was faultless.


Propilot was developed over a year ago and has only received minor changes. This is now the 4th ProPilot tour we have run and I admit, we had problems early on with planes getting stollen but this was resolved.

We still have missions, tours and online events that do not run on propilot! These are updated frequently but should we  appologise for developing the ProPilot idea by running events that utilize this system? I understand that these events will not include persons who do not like or do not wish to fly on ProPilot, just like the Online Fly Ins do not include the people who only fly offline.

I can not appologise for moving forward with ideas that not everyone appreciates or likes..... After all, we can only please some of the people some of the time! You will not like everything we do, just as long as you like most of it! I am sure there are people out there who like ProPilot.
Phil Nutt EHM 1703
 

EHM-1199 Philip

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« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2007, 12:56:01 am »
Convo ended from my part. Clearly tis the way forward ;)

Just felt and still do ticked off over wasted evenings. As I've said elsewhere - maybe its just my system and if so then sorry for ever criticising something which in essence I love the idea of. However, I'm gonna leave pp until I've had a chance to resintall fs and see if that helps. Have to take the wrap for something here i guess if nobody else is having any issues.

Offline EHM-0948 Bruno

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« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2007, 01:12:30 am »
Hi,

I am back on duties now (at least on a relative way of speaking) and I want to answer some of your posts ... :)

Well, first of all I would like to thank your answers. Some of them, in my opinion show a constructive effort on getting a better FAC algorithm, others, unfortunately, mix other situations that don't really need to be discussed here.

As you all know, the current FAC algorithm doesn't actually reflect pilots that spent more time flying on ProPilot, comparing to others that can do only one flight and gain a direct entry to the Top Ten chart.
This situation is completely unfair, and it should be changed as soon as we, MT, had a chance to think about it.

This new FAC algorithm should reflect pilots who actually spend more time flying with more flights and have less penalties than others. And we cannot assume that the pilots will put the airplane on the air and go to sleep because we dont' have a camera pointed on his bedroom to check that.
We must assume that when a pilot does a long flight, he is following EHM rules, and those rules tells us that he must not leave the computer for more than 15 mins. So, where's the big deal here ?
If someone doesn't follow EHM rules, and if we caught him, the flight is, logically, not approved. And if we suspect of that we will talk to the pilot and ask him some explanations for that.

We based the new FAC algorithm to previlege pilots who do more flight minutes (and not longer flights), that is because they put more effort, and sacrifice their personal life time on behalf on our VA. Because of that, they should be more rewarded than others that do smaller flights and jump to the top ten with only one flight.
Because of that, we are introducing a new variable here that must do all the difference and it's fair. It wasn't on the past, where pilots Bruce Woodbridge (not to mention others) who dedicate their personal life to fly, and still they don't get rewarded because of that.

Some of you are saying that we are pointing to previlege longer flights. We don't. We previlege the total flight minutes from all of your flights. It's better for you to have two flights counting 60 minutes, than 1 flight counting 60 minutes. So, again, why so many incorrect conclusions where you all say we want to give relevance to long hauls?

This topic is already going much far, and I will try to give more answers along time (if my baby permits it) but the ProPilot system was made for two reasons, flight analysis and simulated airplane movement, and the real-life simulation part is not on the flight analysis (pilots on real life don't get their salary cutted off if they do a flight where they overspeed the airplane) but on the airplane movement operations.

In conclusion, we are always opened to new constructive thoughts, but much of what I readt here was not on that side and if it were, the necessary conclusions were not right. For that I give some answers from some of you:

Willem said:
"First this system dont change anything to the system, many pilots will be end in negative numbers and it will take them years of flying without penalties to become positive.(put it in a spreadsheet amazing figures)."

Of course not. As soon as you start to stop the penalties on your flights, you will grown your FAC much more quicker than on the current way where the FAC doesn't took in total minutes condition neither the online flight condition.

"One other thing get rid off the ridicules system off suspension, ít’s a hobby, also it takes some work away from the hubmanagers (they don’t react and if they do its to late) . "

I apologize if you got some late answers. We already corrected that by talking with our Hub Managers. If you still have problems, please send us an email.
The suspension is necessary so you can relax a bit without getting another airplane on the air and crash it again without knowing the reason why you crashed. This is also a way for us to see why our pilots crash, and try to improve our services.

Jim said:
"There seem to have been a number of management decisions in recent months that have punished those of us who dont have a huge amount of time....."

We didn't took any of those decisions outside of the ProPilot world. Even so, I don't understand why you say "recent months" while we didn't made anything on that matter until now.
But even so, you're not right because I already explained that we previlege pilots who fly more often, and also do more flight hours. Not only one part of that sentence.

"Now it seems i have to fly every day, for many hours in order to be considered a good EHM pilot - well rubbish to that i say and i hope that is not what management are wanting to achieve."

We are not considering this outside of the ProPilot world. ProPilot is a piece of our VA. But we have much more options that can fill you up, so, you cannot judge us like that because of one rule that we applied, on one piece of our VA.


Regarding to Iain's conclusion, I must say that even now it's possible to have a worse FAC score at last, than crashing the airplane. You can get almost a 2000 FAC score on a flight right now (!!), and on the future it will continue to be possible because the penalties are accumulated on your flight.
The only way to solve this is to give the crash penalty a bigger value than the sum of all the flight penalties that you get. That way we could have Iain's conclusion solved out, but if so we would open a Pandora's box where pilots that crashed once, simply would leave the ProPilot system because it would had become impossible to recover from that mistake.

To end, when we build a so special system like ProPilot, it's impossible to be appreciated by everyone. And it's normal to be like that because all of us are different.
But what we didn't create was the obligation to fly on ProPilot and we will never do. Like we don't create the obligation of using the Flight Logger on every flight that you do. So, you will always have the possibility to choose to fly on it or not. What we cannot accept is pilots that somehow don't accept ProPilot and his rules, don't fly on it as they should, and still come here saying that it's unfair this new algorithm.

Finally, we are completely opened to constructive opinions. If some of you want to wash out the dirty clothes from things from the past, please send an email to us. As you know we are always here to listen to you, because without you we wouldn't exist.

Regards,

EHM-1821 Javier

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New FAC algorithm to enter as soon as possible.
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2007, 06:58:55 am »
I have just noticed something, if the bigger our PP score, the worse it is, then how can it be in negative?

Offline EHM-1001 Robert

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New FAC algorithm to enter as soon as possible.
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2007, 08:44:36 am »
With the current scalers, and relatively lots of penalties, you cen easily go into negative ;) Just check my career picture above some posts ;)

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Offline EHM-0361 Karsten

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New FAC algorithm to enter as soon as possible.
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2007, 09:47:13 am »
At the risk of stirring up trouble I'm going to say this. Phil and Bruno I find your opinions and answers to subject of the rules in paragraph 4.6 a little weird.
First of all I agree Phil we do have a liberal reporting system. However that system don't apply when it comes to ProPilot. When you are using PP theres only one way to report it. But you are not going to change the rules, and I guess that is that. We can either live with it or take our flying business somewhere else.
But I think it's a little funny to have a rule and say we have this rule. But we know not all is following it. But we are not going to do anything to make sure that people do. It sort of like running a shop, where people them self use a scanner to check out the items they want to buy. At the exit a big poster says: "don't shoplift." How long is a store like that going to stay in business when people figure out that, there no alarms on the items, because the store owner trusts people and their moral.
Okay I have said what I wanted to say. You can either agree with me or disagree with me. Don't really mater.

EHM-1821 Javier

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New FAC algorithm to enter as soon as possible.
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2007, 09:56:40 am »
Quote
Originally posted by EHM-1001 Robert
With the current scalers, and relatively lots of penalties, you cen easily go into negative ;) Just check my career picture above some posts ;)


So negative would be good or bad? :s

Since the more you have, the worse your FAC, the less the better, so if negative, how will we work our way back into a positive number which means a worse FAC? Im confused...reading through earlier posts to see if i missed something...

Edit: Oooh, nvm, i guess i missed out the main post of the thread:$