New FAC algorithm to enter as soon as possible.

[EHM-0948 Bruno]

Dear pilots,

After a long time analysing the flights, the MT noticed that the current FAC algorithm doesn't benefict pilots on a fair way.
For instance, a pilot that does a 50 mins flight is evaluated the same way as a pilot that does a 9h trip ...

So, we came to a new algorithm that will work the opposite way as this one: The bigger the value, the better you are

The algorithm will be:

[Total Flights] x 0.5 + [Total Minutes] x 0.3 - [Total Extra Penalties] x 0.7 - [Total Flight Penalties] + [Total online IVAO/VATSIM flights] x 0.9

So, as you see you get beneficts if:

- You do flights on ProPilot.
- You do longer flights.
- You fly online on a flight network.

We hope this new FAC algorithm can be more fair to all of us.

The transfer step will be made on our limited time ...
You'll also receive an automatic email explaining all of your new FAC value when it has been applied.

This topic is opened for discussion or doubts.

Regards,

[EHM-0471 Peter]

Absolutely very fair to all pilots who already fly on ProPilot and the same for all newcomers.

Peter

[EHM-1651 Christian]

Seems more fair yes, but will the FAC for all of us, start from 0?

[EHM-1908 Steve]

Im not sure about the way this will benifit longer flights.
It seems to me that in a lot of cases flights of 4hr + are flown with no one in front of the pc screen (auto-pilot) and sometimes not even in the same room.
I feel it will reduce flying ability and encourage chaseing numbers.

Just my thoughts

Steve

[EHM-1883 Matt]

I like all of it, except the fact that you get extra if it's on a network. I think that is very unfair considering alot of us don't like to fly online, and also the fact that IVAO ATC sometimes forces us to make bad moves.

[EHM-0361 Karsten]

Originally posted by EHM-1883 Matt
I like all of it, except the fact that you get extra if it's on a network. I think that is very unfair considering alot of us don't like to fly online.

I think I prefer this, instead of what I have seen other places where online flying where rewarded double flight time

[EHM-1442 Luis]

I think the new algorithm 'll be more fair and if possible it must include another variable, that is the difficulty of the airplane, as we know is different make a ProPilot flight on a Beech or on a 747, or on any payware like LevelD or PMDG.

The aircrafts must have a difficulty rate that must be included in the FAC algorithm.:>:% :]

How much worse, better........ehehehehe....heheheh......

Just a question - 'll be a convertion from the current FAC or everybody starts from the beginning?

This is just my opinion

[EHM-1714 João]

Originally posted by EHM-1442 Luis
Ias we know is different make a ProPilot flight on a Beech or on a 747, or on any payware like LevelD or PMDG.

;DSure! Flying a Beech is much harder and a lot more fun!;D

[EHM-1947 Miko]

Why reward long flights ? I think the difficulties and the art of flying is revealed at departure and approach. Why reward the autopilot?

I agree to honour the online pilots because they are not allways responsible for certain things especially descent rate and speed at approach - and last but not least - they have more things to do as only concentrating on fault avoidance.

But it is very difficult and the different oppinions show that. So I think Brunos new formula is quit allright.

[EHM-1442 Luis]

;DSure! Flying a Beech is much harder and a lot more fun!;D

Yes,you are right and that must be the reason why everybody here starts flying 747 and when we are ATP we are allowed to fly a Beech.......:> hmm... very logical:]

[EHM-1358 Tim]

Originally posted by EHM-1651 Christian
Seems more fair yes, but will the FAC for all of us, start from 0?

The score will carry on from what pilots have previously got. So if you have a low score, you should have a high score now.

It's all a little confusing if you ask me!

[EHM-1612 Paolo]

Alright, it seems the perfect way for me to improve my FAC, because I do long flights and often online, but I still have a doubt: a crash enters in a "extra penalty" category, right? and all the others penalties in the normal flight penalties category? This means that if you get a "engine started without parking brakes on" penalty,(110 points) it means that you can easily go negative...:>
Is this possible in PP or not? (I am already planning for my negative FAC )

I really like this new way, I think that landing after a 6h flight is much more difficult than flying the same plane for 40mins, and it will be a lot of fun looking our huge FACs

[EHM-1001 Robert]

I think we can see the real point only when the new FAC is calculated, and we can see then our own situation and can compare it with others. Of course it can be a pride to be high on the top list, but folks, it is "just" a game

Anyway, I think that long flights count a little more, because you may leave the cockpit for minutes, hours, even though you spent more time with flying, you dedicate more time and more energy to EuroHarmony. It is not a cheating. Everybody flies as much as he can. Nobody will gain anything from having a bigger FAC number, but the experience and the fun of hours he spent with it.

Next to it, if nobody would fly longhaul flights, the big jets would just laid around the HUBs in dust @ rust cover, so anybody could ask: why do we keep them at all in PP system ? Flying the heavies is a type of flying that requires more time than a short flight.

Online flights count more for the same reason: you need to put more energy, more time into it, and it is more risky that your system or plane will be crashed and you lost all the time you spent on that flight. You can do crappy the job, but I am sure the average onmline fliers are very precise, and probably they are the most skilled pilots, and so they deserve some extra score.

[EHM-0948 Bruno]

Well, looks like many questions were posted and answered ... It's what happens when we have the best pilot community in the VA world

Well, Robert said it all too, so I think there weren't any questions left, right ?

The idea is to turn our strategy to pass more time flying for EHM, and to start flying online. That's where we want to go.

Regarding the difficulty value, looks like a good option too, I will think about it.

The FAC will be re-calculated.

Regards,

[EHM-1328 Willem]

First this system dont change anything to the system, many pilots will be end in negative numbers and it will take them years of flying without penalties to become positive.
(put it in a spreadsheet amazing figures).

Also the pilot witch makes long haul flights are in great advance,
Special pilots ho are flying day after day after day flights from 8-12 hours (this is only possible on Euroharmony AND NOBODY BELIEVES THAT PILOTS DO FLIGHTS 8-12 HOURS DAY AFTER DAY.).

EHM-1908 Steve It seems to me that in a lot of cases flights of 4hr + are flown with no one in front of the pc screen (auto-pilot) and sometimes not even in the same room.

To fly big jets you don’t have to fly long flights from 8-12 hours.

One other thing get rid off the ridicules system off suspension, ít’s a hobby, also it takes some work away from the hubmanagers (they don’t react and if they do its to late) .

EHM-1001 Robert    but folks, it is "just" a game

   
yes it’s a game ?


Rgrds Willem, EHM1328

[EHM-0948 Bruno]

hhmmm... I don't agree Willem.

Looking deeper on the new algorithm you notice that only 70% of the extra penalty is being considered. Also, 90% of a bonus is given if you fly online and the total penalties mantain as it is.

It's true that some of us will have negative values, but negative doesn't mean we are bad pilots ... It's just a value, like others will have positive values, but not too high.

If you put yourself on our side, you'll that it's hard to arrange a formula that will be accepted by everyone, and you don't know how much months were we actually thinking about arranging one that could be more fair to all of us.

So, if you have a better idea, please propose it and we will glady hear it and analyse it. If not, than accept this one because it's the best that we can do

Regards,

[EHM-1703 Philip]

OK, at the risk of adding fuel to a fire here is my input.

Firstly, I agree, long haul flyers do have a tendency to overnight and leave the controls, but if you do that on PP you do so at your own risk, too many variables can occur that result in crashes and or penalties. Also you would not leave your cockpit for that long if you were on VATSIM or IVAO would you? Why should it be that someone who spends 7 hours flying across the Atlantic setting up the flight with correct procedures observing NATS and monitoring all situations should get the same score as a Pilot who flies 20 minutes from Zurich to Geneva and doesn't even make it to transition altitude let alone FL180? In my opinion, this is a no brainer, of course, the longer you fly and the more hours you invest, the better your score should be! There are many ways of cheating the system if you so desire but flying only short 20 minute flights on the current system offers too much of a benefit. It's horses for courses guys, at the moment, there is far too much of an advantage to flying Short flights on PP, this has to be addressed for those who prefer medium and long haul this does not make it advantageous to fly long haul, it evens the score up, you spend 7 hours long haul you get a fac that represents 7 hours of work. You fly 7 one hour flights you get the same or even better score as there is a division by total number of flights as well.

Remember we force no one to fly on PP, if you feel the system is unfair or you don't like the suspension then you will not utilise PP. Currently on average, less than 25% of EHM flights are done on PP. This says to me that only 25% of our pilots like the current system, this is not enough for the scope that this system offers. If this figure does not improve after changing the FAC system then we need to look at other areas or go back to the drawing board, if it does then we have achieved our goal. I guess what I am saying here, is vote with your flights, if you like it, then use it! If not we will continue to try to develop a system that you enjoy using! Please don't immediately criticise an idea before seeing it in operation. We are a dynamic airline and we will adapt to what our pilots want and the way I see it, PP is not being fully utilised so we need to adapt and develop it further.

Thanks and good luck!

[EHM-1749 Hector]

I am 100% with Phil and with most of the previous opinions.
I always thought that there was something missing in the way the FAC is calculated.
Please don't get me wrong, but just seeing a guy like Bruce with 1200+hours ranked behind another with much less flying time kept me thinking about it. I am glad the subject is now on the table.
Longhaul fligths I do a lot and NEVER EVER leave the cockpit unattended just because on what Phil pointed out. It is not easy though. Whenever I leave the cockpit (and never longer thant 30'),  I post a message to the FIR I am flying at showing the Zulu time out and the Zulu time back.
Also the longer the flight, the more exposed we are to penalties, specially the overspeed one. You never know when the wind is going to shift against you.
Flying larger planes should also be better rewarded for the complexity and attention they demand.
Please don't missunderstand me, but I believe that the penalties in PP should be applied according to the rank of the pilot. In other words, the penalty for forgetting to turn the landing lights on before take off by an ATP pilot should be higher than for an FO pilot and so on.
Although it is not my case, I recognize that for most of us this is perceived like a game but even when playing games we humans strive for continuous improvement and always look for more.
If Microsoft had thought of FS as a simple game, we would still be flying a little Cessna 172 out of Merril Meigs like most of us did back in 1984. From Sub-Logic. Not Microsoft.
I congratulate Management for making this step to improve this important issue.
Regards,
Hector

[EHM-1657 Jay]

I have to agree with everyone, I think it is a great step towards more fairness and equality

[EHM-1947 Miko]

I think there are two questions that are discussed here at the same time:

1. How to improve objectivity the PP average score

2. How to increase the flight hours in general and in special online.

PP is an interesting software good ideas included - in my oppinion at the beginning of developement and in need of improvement in many aspects and not made for people with a sensible feeling of fairness and objectivity - there is a lot of potential in it - but it is not a "medicine against everything".

Of course the typical PP-Pilot wants to be successful and member of the top 10 list. So he will elect his flights under the aspect of easy Propiloting:

- "Online? No thanks" (ATC is more a burden to a PP pilot than a help)

- Easy Approaches (it is interesting that most of the "stars" in the top 10 list are unvisible on a dangerous tour like "Dakar 2007"  -  here are "front pigs" who you will normally find in the 200-300 score lower middle class - are they worse pilots?)

- Easy Planes (Yes: to land a PMDG 738 with autoland in EGLL is easy and no large risk - wheather after 1 or 8 hours)

What I want to say is that PP does encourage the opposite of what it is supposed to do. It is not realy the means to influence the number of online or long flights.

[EHM-1821 Javier]

I dont get it, can someone explain this clearly and simply to me please?:s Thanks;D

[EHM-1612 Paolo]

Originally posted by EHM-0948 Bruno
The idea is to turn our strategy to pass more time flying for EHM, and to start flying online. That's where we want to go.

PP is meant for improving our skills, and it is really doing a good job on everyone, but it has the tendency to advantage offline flyers and short-haul flights. The managment is trying to make ehm pilots fly more and online. I think that it makes a huge difference flying a short haul flight and a long haul one, if you leave your cockpit for 50% of the flying time too (I have to admit that I leave the cockpit for something like 4hours or more when I flight from sydney to athens, but I simply love long flights). The idea of the difficulty is a good one, and I am sure the managment is considering it.

[EHM-1465 Dominic]

Like many things in life, many of us have strong opinions on this issue

For my part, I'd certainly agree that we ought not judge the new system until we see how it actually operates...

We also need to remember that one of EHM's major strengths is that we value all our pilots and welcome those who can fly for hours every day AND those who have heavy work/family commitments who can only fly once a week or month - each of us makes this airline special and those who fly less hours may also be contributing hours of work behind the scenes...

I think a little healthy competition can be a good thing BUT I would say that the only meaningful competition that the FAC should encourage is with yourself! To improve your skills with every flight and correct mistakes is the sign of a true professional in my view and is independent of anybody else's 'score'...

Let's celebrate the fact that we all enjoy our hobby in different ways rather than trying to elevate certain styles of flying above others. EuroHarmony really isn't a competition

After all, in the real world, for years now, pilot training has concentrated on team effort and co-operation rather than individual ability as this ensures greater safety and efficiency...

[EHM-1500 Jim]

I hope this new system works out for the VA and i for one am more than happy to try it out.
But, it yet again seems as though the management are rewarding those who have 8 hrs to sit infront of their pc and penalising those of us who only have time to do a short haul flight for say 1 - 2 hrs - is my flight any less valuable to the VA? Would you tell a short haul 737 pilot that his job is a "no brainer"? I think not, flying any commercial plane in busy airspace with passengers is a challenge regardless of how long you fly.
There seem to have been a number of management decisions in recent months that have punished those of us who dont have a huge amount of time.....if this is going to turn into a regular occurence then the VA will have gone down in my asteem. When i first joined this VA over 2 years ago it was very much open to all with no judgement of how much flying you did or how good you were - beginners to experts, short haul to long haul, all were encouraged. Now it seems i have to fly every day, for many hours in order to be considered a good EHM pilot - well rubbish to that i say and i hope that is not what management are wanting to achieve.
I dont use pro-pilot much these days so i guess it wont affect me much. Why not? Well, i base my flights around on-line ATC on IVAO and 9 times out of 10 there isnt a plane at the airport i want. I was also sick of getting penalties for excessive rate of climb and descent with the pmdg 737 whilst it is flying in VNAV mode.
I will however give the new one a go with an open mind.
Jim

[EHM-0361 Karsten]

I can agree with Dom about not to judge the new system until we see how it actually operates...

I don't know if the New FAC algorithm creates a more fair system. And isn't the question, what is a fair system and in what way. I think to many people put to much focus on that number. I mean you can't compare two pilots fact and from that say his a good pilot and his not. Which leads me to something else that Dom said, it not a competition. Somehow it seem like we haven't learned anything from our mistakes. We my not have a pilot of the month. But instead we now have a ProPilot top 10. That smells of competition to me.
I agree with Phil nobody is forcing us to fly ProPilot. But it's clear that MT is trying to get more to fly PP. I guess only time will show if it's going to happen. However MT please remember how the PP was introduced as a division for those that wanted to fly a little more like the real deal. Perhaps those 75% that don't fly PP don't want to fly a little bit more like the real deal. And perhaps it the same thing with online flying. I mean, I for one don't want some Controller to tell me what to do. If I wanted someone to order me around, I would get a wife.

Last thing and this really saddens me to hear.

Originally posted by EHM-1703 Philip

Firstly, I agree, long haul flyers do have a tendency to overnight and leave the controls, but if you do that on PP you do so at your own risk, too many variables can occur that result in crashes and or penalties.

If what our CEO here is saying is the company policy. Then perhaps it time for me to pack it in. And I mean especially when we are talking PP I'm asking myself isn't PP suppose to simulate the real thing. I really hope this wasn't meant the way it came out. I would really like to believe that when someone fly for 8 - 10 hours, that they do it and are not sleeping, in school/at work or something like that.