VATSIM strikes again!

[EHM-1703 Philip]

Recently, Kendy placed a post in a number of VATSIM forums about the Pro Pilot project, unfortunately the VATSIM management didn't like where he had placed them and decided to move them and added a curt little reply! This really is why I don't fly VATSIM!

http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?t=5045

This is in the VA section in the VATSIM forums.

Phil

[VATSIM VATGOV6]

I'm the "VATSIM management" Phil's referreing to, and for the record, I wasn't trying to hurt you guys.

What happened was that Kendy appears to not have understood that our Forums are not "subscription" type forums, and that every user automatically sees what is posted in every forum when they click on "show new messages".  

As a result, what Kendy did by mistake (I'm assuming) was fix it so that every forum reader at VATSIM  didn't see ONE advertisement for ProPilot, but 22.  When I logged in that morning, I saw 22 adverts, all identical for the same project, and thought it looked like spam.  So did many of our forum readers, because they were starting to complain, and write pretty nasty things on the forums about your project.  

When I moved your thread, I actually thought I was trying to HELP you guys, by helping you avoid a lot of angry posts from people who don't like spam on forums.

I'm sorry you misinterpreted my motives.  I was actually impressed with your project, and hope that you don't write off the VATSIM network because of a misunderstanding over 22 posts on a forum.  

We all make mistakes.  At the time, I assumed that Kendy just made a mistake by not realising how the VATSIM forums worked, and moved his posts to a place where he wouldn't become the target of a flame-war.  If that was also a mistake, I apologise.  If I had done nothing however, I'm pretty sure that you would have had a lot less favourable interest, and more negative posts than you deserve.

I'd also like to invite you back to VATSIM.  Subject titles like "VATSIM STRIKES AGAIN" makes us look like Darth Vader, and perhaps you'd like to e-mail me at jeff (at) vatsim.net if you've had a particular bad experience that I could perhaps help you solve.  I honestly believe that if you got to know us better, you might find that we're just flight simulation enthusiasts like yourselves, and we actually have an awful lot in common.

Jeff Clark
Vice President - Documents & Archives
VATSIM Board of Governors

[EHM-1670 Bill]

One of the replies on thew VATSIM forum may need attention:
..............................................
Don't mean to rain on anyone's parade here, but might there be any trademarking or copyright issues with a flight simulator produced by the Sierra company? It was a while ago, but still worth investigating before any real harm is done.
.................................................

Put ProPilot into Google and it comes up with a raft of links, not least the ProPilot forum at AVSIM.

[EHM-0005 Maarten]

I agree with VATSIM on this and I think the PR manager should be more careful when submitting announcements in other forums.

For the the name "ProPilot". There's so existing similar project that has the name "ProPilot", so there's no copyright issue. Besides that, ProPilot is such a universal name that it can't be protected by copyright laws.

[EHM-1703 Philip]

Cripes, looks like I opened up a real can of worms!

My comment above is merely aimed at the way VATSIM address people. (excuse my sweeping generalization, but I am referring to Management, ATC and Pilot users) Both online and in the forums, it would seem that if you don't know what you are doing or are unfamiliar with something, the answer comes back short shrift and somewhat degrading!

My post here was not defending the fact Kendy had made a mistake by spamming the forum, more at the way it was pointed out to him! A rolling eyes emoticon from management to one of my posts would generally give me the impression that I have screwed up! The problem is, every other reader also knows that now. Maybe even calling him by name instead of “Note to Original Poster” may lighten the mood a little

Maybe if VATSIM users and moderators took the time to talk to people on a personal level rather than humiliating them in front of the entire network then some of us may be a little more inclined to participate.

To be honest with you, I attempted to sort out my problems whilst online and with little success. Flying is a hobby that I enjoy and I use it as entertainment. If I wanted to spend my spare time sending emails and being publicly trounced then I would stay at work.

Now I know I am not the only person that feels this way and to be honest, yes, I regret posting this thread now because I find myself trying to make excuses for past experiences and my lack of knowledge. Once again, Humiliated! At least this time I can only blame myself, I should have known the outcome.

Lastly I would like to extend my apologies for upsetting the innocent VATSIM users/moderators both here and on their forum, I understand that the minority can spoil it for the majority, just in my experience and those that I have read of many others, it would seem this is the case.

Phil Nutt

[EHM-1343 Jonathan]

I way prefered the way IVAO helped me.
They are brilliant with newcomers to the network. I found/find members easy to chat to. For example if you fly close to somebody, and tell them to watch TCAS or something. They are more than happy to read back and wish you a good flight. Its that sort of atmosphere that is captured on IVAO. I heard at the Airport one time, even pilots joking on with each other.

VATSIM should loosen up a bit.

[EHM-1703 Philip]

Well I suppose all I am trying to say is sometimes "as real as it gets" is not as fun. (otherwise we would all be airline pilots!)

Phil

[EHM-1555 Kendy]

Dear Jeff Clark,

Just to close this topic;
Our ProPilot advertisement was published in every country on the IVAO Forum. For example, in France it appeared in the VA Topic, in Germany in off topic and so on.... The advertisement got published in every topic where it is appropriate.  The fact is that Brazilian pilots usually don't look in the German or Netherland forum. The response was positive and there were no stupid comments about "spam" or "all over". Already more than 30 new pilots have joined us in the last 2 weeks.  I thought I could use the Vatsim forum in the same way, because it doesn't say in the FAQs that it is not allowed. Now, because of your nice statement, I knew it was not allowed in the Vatsim Forum. I apologize that this happend and thank you for putting this ProPilot advertisement in one topic. My concern and disappointment is not against any moderator or management of Vatsim, but some people who are members. Isn't it enough for the moderator to say that we publish something the wrong way in a forum community? No, there were some people who talked for DAYS about it, like little children.  Do they have nothing better to do than start fighting with other people?  Jeff, you can see it a lot in this forum where people  get worked up about something that has nothing to do with the content of the topic.

Because you have taken the time to instruct me, I know now the way the  VATSIM community works.  It is much different than the IVAO community.
In one point I have to agree with Phil about the professionalsm of Vatsim.  If there is something wrong, the moderator of a forum should say it (like an adult conversation), and should close this topic. He should have the power to stop nonsense from other Vatsim members who never stop writing bad comments  Its like complaining a half year about the food your wife made one time with too much salt in it........

Sometimes it helps to look a little bit out of your garden...and consider other ways of doing things...but for some people in this community this is hard to do.

Topic closed !!

best regards,

Kendy