Author Topic: ProPilot FAC  (Read 13009 times)

Offline EHM-0654 Murray

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ProPilot FAC
« on: September 01, 2009, 05:00:39 pm »
I've been having another look at the FAC calculation mechanism, and I think I've spotted a fundamental flaw in it.  For those that don't know how it's currently calculated, it's:

Your total number of PP flights * 0.5 PLUS
Your total PP flight minutes *0.3 MINUS
Your total PP extra penalties * 0.7 MINUS
Your total PP flight penalties PLUS
Your total number of online PP flights * 0.9

The problem is the emphasized section; extra penalties are crashes - minus 900.0 each, however we wipe these after a year, but flight penalties go into the calculation completely unmodified and they never, ever, get "removed from your permanent record", they only ever get more. This means there are a lot of pilots out there who've accrued negative tens of thousands FACs and they're never, ever going to get back close to positive under the current mechanism.

The big problem as I see it is that we've lost sight of the "A" in FAC - average. I'm proposing making the calculation an average, rather than a total:

Average PP flight minutes * 0.3 minus
Average PP extra penalties * 0.7 minus
Average PP flight penalties plus
Average PP online flights * 0.9

Values will trend back toward the middle of the curve - zero, as long as you're not accruing vast numbers of new penalties, but even if you do, you won't plummet into an abyss.

OK, direct examples - me:

Total Flights = 56
Total Minutes = 5,105
Total Extra Penalties = 0
Total Flight Penalties = 8,680.00
Total Online Flights = 41

Current FAC mechanism score = -7,083.60
Proposed FAC mechanism score = -63.27

Bruce W (without doubt, our most prolific PP member):

Total Flights = 1,322
Total Minutes = 317,211
Total Extra Penalties = 1,800
Total Flight Penalties = 7,400.00
Total Online Flights = 0

Current FAC mechanism score = 75,124.30
Proposed FAC mechanism score = 232.99

It should be noted that if this change goes through, it'll be applied to everyone wholesale to ensure a level playing field "at the start", and when we roll out the new Flight Logger, it'll have a brand new, skills promoting (rather than problem penalising) FAC mechanism any way.
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Offline EHM-1749 Hector

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2009, 12:43:27 am »
Every time this subject comes to surface I normally make the same suggestion. I don't want to mess with the maths of the formula. I leave that to management. The only idea that I have been talking about is that somewhere in the FAC formulae should be a recognition for those flying on-line. Even I once sent a new formula. Again, flying on line either IVAO or VATSIm or whatever recognized by EHM imposes an additional element that have to be accounted for.

Good pilots keep their number of landings equal to their number of takeoffs. Takeoffs are optional but landings are Mandatory.

Offline EHM-1465 Dominic

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2009, 10:56:43 pm »
Hector,

It's already included in the formula as per Murray's examples above ;)
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Offline EHM-1749 Hector

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2009, 07:17:22 pm »
Sorry I should have clarified it. Both total flights and total time are accounted for, but regarding the on-line issue, only the number of flights are inserted in the equation. I think that the on-line time should also be part of the equation.

Good pilots keep their number of landings equal to their number of takeoffs. Takeoffs are optional but landings are Mandatory.

Offline EHM-0654 Murray

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2009, 07:38:50 pm »
... regarding the on-line issue, only the number of flights are inserted in the equation. I think that the on-line time should also be part of the equation.

Ah, I understand. That would be an easy addition.

Another possibility that comes to mind (having whined about flight penalties sticking with you for life) would be to only include one year's worth of them - simples...
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 07:49:49 pm by EHM-0654 Murray »
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Offline EHM-1749 Hector

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2009, 11:30:40 pm »
With all due respect I think that whatever we do in ProPilot should stay in for ever. Good and bad things. If we start to discard the penalties, we will never be able to assess whether we are becoming better pilots, which is the major goal of going ProPilot.  Whatever we did, should stay there. Otherwise we would become less careful (not wanting to say lazy) because we would know that our mistakes would be washed away. It would be like if we never had had it.  Keeping them in our file should serve for us as a reminder. For example, I will never forget that because of my failure to check the weight and balance I crashed a B763. Ever since I have never failed to do that. That paragraph in my flight history I read every time I lock a flight reminds me of that day. However, there are certain penalties that should be reviewed before being applied:

The following two penalties should be applied only at start up. Chances are that in cruise you may hit the wrong key or spot and you are penalized.

1.  Engines ON and strobe light not turned on. 
2.  Engines ON and beacon lights not turned on.

The following is the one that is probably the most hated by ProPilot pilots:

1.  Airplane was at overspeed
Before applying this penalty I think that the ACARS should be checked. Of course, I don't have a clue whether this check is possible within the logistic of ProPilot.
Overspeeding may result from either a pilot genuine mistake or when flying on-line and the connection is lost. The latter would be easy to detect in the ACARS because the window column goes to zero and the speed column shows a change in value. We all know that when this happens, the autothrottle may not react in time to avoid overspeeding. No matter how the changes are set in FSUIPC it happens.
I don't know if this type of occurrence could be flagged out in ProPilot. From this I could even think that this penalty is rarely applied in off line flights.
If overspeeding occurs whitout noticeable wind changes or without disconnected for sure could be ruled as a genuine pilot mistake. He must pay.
 
 

Good pilots keep their number of landings equal to their number of takeoffs. Takeoffs are optional but landings are Mandatory.

Offline EHM-0654 Murray

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2009, 09:49:42 am »
The penalties issues (including the three you mentioned, for there are very many) are being addressed in FLv4/PPv3 - it's something that cannot be corrected in the current flight logger. Plus we are hoping to have the individual penalties be "toggleable" in the back-end management panel, so that after the fact, management can remove penalties from flights in a simple way (something that is currently almost impossible to do...)

It's interesting that you say penalties should be forever Hector, might be worth running a poll to invite more opinion on this matter. At present, we have flight penalties with you forever, and extra penalties (crashes for the most part) expunged after a year. Would you (both you Hector, and you the general ProPilot flying membership) prefer to see both groups of penalties being "forever" or time limited, or perhaps just keep it as it is?
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Offline EHM-0975 Ragnar

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2009, 09:40:29 am »
I don't mind if the penalties are included in the calculations forever, but it should, as indicated by Murrays first post, be at all possible to get back to the positive side. You can be unlucky a few times today, have problems with scenery, cats on the keyboard, and it will never be fun to fly PP again.

One thing that should be done is also to change the message given when reporting a PP flight. 'Your FAC was changed from -13000 to -12997.2 since you got a total of 0 for this flight' is just wierd, you should show the numbers in the same way as you did in the first post, then pilots can understand what is going on. Today PP penalties is to me just a black box that makes some weird math to prove I'm a bad (and unlucky) pilot.

A thing that should be provided for in Flogger4 is that some panels (provided here) does not have a (working?) switch for all the lights, don't remember which one I flew just a few weeks ago where there was no way (except switching on all lights with 'L') to avoid one of the '...lights not on at engine startup' error. I wasn't in PP at the time, but I noticed the notification on screen.

I'm @ FAC -12037.20 and counting... If I understood correctly I need somewhere around 40000 perfect flight minutes=666 hours=1.7 times as many hours as I've flown since 2004 to get to 0. Hmmm...

Offline EHM-2383 Ian

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2009, 12:42:05 pm »
I do believe that penalties should be removed after a decent length of time as it seems unfair to be penalised time and time again for the same errors. I can't agree with a previous entry that keeping the penalties acts as a reminder not to repeat mistakes. I absolutely hate, for example, the constant reminder on the records that states, "You crashed an airplane ..............." Who needs to be constantly reminded of the shame? I, for one, never forget getting penalties and do my utmost not to repeat - not always successfully of course!!

I agree with others about the much hated overspeed penalty. I constantly get this one - not because of pilot error - but due to the limitations of FS9 with real weather when you get very sudden and powerful changes of wind speed. I now don't use real weather when flying PP which I think is a pity. Please, please, can something be done about this? Is it not possible, for example, to increase the time limit a bit before the penalty kicks in to allow the pilot to return to acceptable speed?

Ian

Offline EHM-0654 Murray

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2009, 02:19:49 pm »
As I said in reply #6 Iain, there's nothing we can do about the penalties with the current flight logger (other than make them "cost" more or less); the next Flight Logger version, with it's associated changes in how the FAC will be calculated (positively, rather than negatively, with "skills demonstrated" bonuses as well as "errors made" penalties) will correct all the current problems that we all have with the penalties.

All I'm thinking of here is to adjust how the current FAC is calculated, hopefully to make it a little easier to correct a negative FAC, as an interim "fix" while the new FLogger is in development.
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Offline EHM-2383 Ian

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2009, 04:16:42 pm »
Thanks for reply, Murray. I understand the situation with the current version of flight logger. I was thinking ahead to the new version when commenting.

Offline EHM-0654 Murray

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2009, 10:38:41 am »
Well, to some extent, that's why I want to move over to the average-based FAC, rather than the monolithic FAC that's currently in place. While it's not yet set in stone, I'd like the new overall FAC (for FLv4) to be a score value between 0 and 100 (in other words, a percentage) so that it's simple and obvious who are the best and not so good pilots.For individual flights, the FAC will be a far more complete thing, with skills demonstrated accruing a positive score, and errors perceived accruing a negative score; flying to the right destination is a good thing, crashing is a bad thing. All the lights penalties will be completely revisited (though it's strange that the DC-3, which has no strobes, doesn't attract the "No strobes at engine start" penalty...), along with the much hated "overspeed due to weather" penalty; in fact, this is going to be such a radical change in PP that it's likely we'll have to say no more FLv3 for PP flying...
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Offline EHM-2387 Eric-Jan

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2009, 03:09:15 pm »
... this is going to be such a radical change in PP that it's likely we'll have to say no more FLv3 for PP flying...

Which is, in my opinion, a good thing. Provided that enough forewarning is given of cause, and I think this thread is doing exactly that. Sometimes a drastic change is the only way forward.

Getting curious about that FLv4...

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Offline EHM-2470 kivanc

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2009, 08:35:19 am »
Hi,

If it is intended to be something 'Pro-' then it should be as real as possible first. In this point of view not cancelling any penalties such as overspeed... etc. but adding newer penalties is needed. Think about that you're in a Learjet and overspeeding (Besides your life, about 40 M$ is risked). In flight most of the time there are no chance to recover the mistakes as it should be in pro-mode.

If a crash happens or pilot made a mistake pilot must face it all the time. Unless pilot reset his/her carrier and begin from the start, which is the unique opportunity that sims enable us. Thus I am against the periodic cancellation of penalties in anyway and offer the reset mechanism for the once who like to get rid of the previous acts. Otherwise this could be something like 'halflife or Counterstrike', in my opinion. Points would be only a number then.

But there are also some computational cases, such as light management... etc.. If pilot turns the lights off and on at an instant, even for the control, it would count a penalty. This kind of things could be avoided from the FAC by the improvement of the flightlogger or even by the selftrust between us and reporting it on the PIREP; which I think has already been taken into account by MT.



« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 09:23:49 am by EHM-2470 kivanc »
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Offline EHM-2470 kivanc

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2009, 08:56:14 am »
Hi,

About FAC calculation;
Actually, if it will be (Must) continuous there is no importance of point-ing. Since every one should act in that specified order. But nontheless I would like to offer some opinions about importance of the minute coefficient.  In this formula longer flights are favoured and resultantly the use of time compression (TComp.) is compensated which is good for preventing very fast increase of points and the use of TComp.. But what about the short flights, which are sometimes more difficut than the longer (Such as Zurich-Innsbruck) according to geographical conditions. In this point of view, for the minute coefficient,  I would offer some modification of the FAC calculation.
Every flight could have a previously appointed point according to its difficulty, duration, waiting passanger #... etc. and this point could be added to FAC directly.
The average flight time could be calculated by the flight logger by taking into account the current aircraft and if the flight time is shorter! than the determined flight time with a telorance than a point correlated with the stardard deviation (Diffence from the average) could be subtacted from the FAC.
Additionally, weather could also be included or added in the points of FAC. Since it is not the same flying at north on winter and summer.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 09:28:13 am by EHM-2470 kivanc »
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Offline EHM-2198 Didimo

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2009, 09:16:02 pm »
I am afraid I don't quite agree with one of Hector's comments. If we leave all those very old penalties there they will be weighting down like a concrete shoe and we will NEVER see how much progress we make.

If however, every year you kind of get a swipe of penalties then you can compare with previous years and SEE the progress. That is if previous yearly FACs are kept. Let's face it after you get a hefty penalty such as a crash with the current system you might as well give up your ProPilot career :-) it will never let you rise again. For every step back (like a crash) you will have to make like 100 forward.

Anyway, that is my view and many might disagree. I personally stopped finding PP appealing because of that. I just look at the list of penalties (if any) at the end of a flight and that is it.

Offline EHM-2383 Ian

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2009, 09:34:03 pm »
I have to say that I fully agree with Didimo. It takes such a long time to build up a decent score with lots and lots of successful flights and then this can be knocked out very rapidly with heavy penalties. While penalties are a good way of keeping one sharp and have to be retained, there is also a need for positive incentive to avoid demoralisation. Perhaps some halfway house, as suggested previously, is the answer.

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Offline EHM-1749 Hector

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2009, 05:38:07 pm »

Please click on the image to enlarge it.

The black line represents my FAC evolution ever since I made my first PP flight on Nov 5, 2005. It can be seen that there have been a lot of "downs" that have been corrected by learning from the previous mistakes. The big one in March 2008 includes my crash while taking off because I forgot to check my plane weight and balance.
The red line represents what the FAC would be if the penalties were "erased off" at the end of every year so we would start next year as clean as a baby.

My question is: what do we want to see? Nice numbers or our real learning curve?

Yes, there were moments when I really hated PP but every time I felt more challenged. And this is the name of the game: Challenge.
We all start in PP under the same conditions. With zero penalties. It is up to us and only to us to work hard to minimize them.

I agree 100% that there are penalties that should be somehow reviewed because there is no reason to be penalized for beacons off while in cruise level and so on.
Also I am a strong believer that the FAC formula should reward not only the numbers of flights online but also the time online. Flying online involves more chances for penalties specially the overspeeding one due to the sudden change in wind conditions sometimes occurr.
More than once I forgot to turn the landing lights on when descending below 10000 or forgot about the speed limit or forgot to set the QNH because I was very busy talking with the ATC and watching other pilots around. It must be remembered that we have no copilot.
For instance  in a ramdom check between pilots in PP flying online and those not connected the average penalty points per flight was about 4 for the pilots not online as compared with about 40 for those flying online. Roughly 10 times higher.

Crashes. It seems also to be a big concern about crashes. Crashes are penalized only 70% which mean 700 points.
Now we have a lot of crashes but what have we learned from them? I learned from mine but I would like to learn from other pilots to avoid doing what they did wrong. We have to write a report and state our theory of what happened. It should be nice if Management would publish those reports say, every month. 
Only the reports. We don't need names, what we need is the probable cause. 

Good pilots keep their number of landings equal to their number of takeoffs. Takeoffs are optional but landings are Mandatory.

Offline EHM-2097 Andrei

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2009, 07:35:24 am »
I am following this thread since some time without saying anything, so I must warn youthat this will be a long, long post. And with spoilers, too :)

1) As far as I can see, one very hot point of the debate is whether penalties (including crashes) should be "cleaned up" in time. Hector's case in the preceding post is very well stated, and an excellent explanation why we should not do it, however I think the solution stands in this very phrase:

Quote
My question is: what do we want to see? Nice numbers or our real learning curve?

By following this thread it looks obvious that there is no single answer to this, so my suggestion here is that we may keep two scores per pilot, one that includes all and a rolling one. We can extend this to maintaining two "top tens", for instance a "best scores in the past 3 months" and a "best all-time scores".

Time for another warning  ;D : being one of the developers, unless I get bashed for this idea this WILL be implemented this way. So do not hesitate to comment on this one...


2) Whatever we do to compute the pilot overall scores, one thing is for sure, we need to change the per-flight scoring method. There is still debate within the MT about the details, but the big idea is to grant bonuses for everything the pilot does right instead of subtracting penalties for what he does wrong.

To put it otherwise, a pilot gets nothing for an uncompleted flight (whatever the reason), some bonus for completing the flight in one piece and more bonuses for doing it right (like using the landing lights when AND ONLY WHEN needed).

This change will make necessary to restart FAC calculation at zero for everyone, because there will simply be no way of computing together "old" and "new" scores. I know this will be a blow for some of us (including myself  :) ) but this is inevitable if we want to reform the score/penalties system.


3) One aspect still under debate is whether the overall pilot score should be like a "total" (as it is now) or an "average" (like getting a 1..100 score per flight, and compute the average for all flights). Feel free to comment on this, because we will probably implement the most popular option of the two.


4) I have seen, in this thread, very sensible comments about scoring long flights vs. short ones, and we will try to take into account the following principles:
- A 4-hour flight is not twice as difficult to perform as a 2-hour flight, because the most important parts (and those that require pilot workload) are take-off and landing, which occur one time in both cases;
- However this tends to be less true (in the favour of longer flights) when flying online, because in this case there is a continuous workload throughtout the flight (let's ignore the (in)famous "IVAO badge hunters" who do their online long hauls with "Do not disturb" remarks in their FP while going shopping).

Balancing the bonuses for online nd offline flights will definitely be a difficult and delicate thing, because online flights should be encouraged while the EHM policy remains NOT TO FORCE anyone to fly online.


5) Some penalties obviously need revisiting and for now, one method we think of is adding timers. For instance, turning off the lights by mistake will no longer be penalized IF the pilot realizes his mistake and corrects it within seconds.

The same should solve the overspeed problems. I know this is debatable too; Kivanc stated above, and I think he is right, that in real life passengers would not be very forgiving for their pilot going into overspeed.

However, this is one of the things that are more difficult in (MS)FS than real life, because the wind can change from 50kt tailwind to 50kt headwind in a split of a second. This hardly can happen in real life, while it is a common phenomenon for anyone flying online (and happens, in a lesser extent, also when flying offline wth real weather).

In this condition, we simply cannot require pilots to avoid overspeed (or even stall if the wind changes in the opposite direction), because there is no (known) method to do it. The best we can require (and apply penalties to those who don't) in this case is getting out of overspeed / stall within a short, given time.


6) As FL4 was mentioned at some point and Eric-Jean asked about it, here is a rough story of it:

I started the project 2 years ago but I must admit it did not always run at a fast pace. Also, it took me some time because I had lots of technical stuff to learn, both FS-related (like handling FSUIPC) and related to the broader .Net universe.

At this time the FL4 client can be used (and it is used, by me, as stated in some flights comments) to record non-PP flights. Along with massive technical improvements, which are not visible to pilots, let me point out a few new features (that are already developed, so I take no risk in naming them :) ):
- Possibility to save a flight in progress and resume it at a later time;
- Possibility to break a long flight as two connected flights, or land at the alternate and THEN resume to the main destination;
- Possibility to completely perform a flight (including PP) wthout a running Internet connection
- A more comprehensive flight selection mechanism.

So, at this point there is still to develop the whole PP bonus/penalty/scoring system and the user interface also needs a "facelift". This is why this thread about PP scoring happens at the best possible time, because in a few weeks we will have decided what to develop.


I hope I did not get anyone bored with such a long post  8)

Andrei
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Offline EHM-0654 Murray

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2009, 11:26:36 am »
1) ...By following this thread it looks obvious that there is no single answer to this, so my suggestion here is that we may keep two scores per pilot, one that includes all and a rolling one. We can extend this to maintaining two "top tens", for instance a "best scores in the past 3 months" and a "best all-time scores".

2) ...but the big idea is to grant bonuses for everything the pilot does right instead of subtracting penalties for what he does wrong.

3) One aspect still under debate is whether the overall pilot score should be like a "total" (as it is now) or an "average" (like getting a 1..100 score per flight, and compute the average for all flights). Feel free to comment on this, because we will probably implement the most popular option of the two.

4) I have seen, in this thread, very sensible comments about scoring long flights vs. short ones, and we will try to take into account the following principles...

Just want to take a few moments to backup/expand upon/refute some of the things Andrei has said.

Point 1. leading into point 2.; the suggestion of ignoring some penalties was made as a stop-gap measure to be applied to the current FAC calculation *ONLY* (to give those of us with hugely negative FACs a chance). FLv4/PPv3 and it's new skills-focused scoring will totally negate the need to ever remove penalties from the pilot record. As a pilot's skills improve, their FAC will *IMMEDIATELY* reflect the improvement, not in a few years time (current FAC). Personally, I don't see any mileage being gained in operating two calculations on the new scoring, but a feature that will be easy to provide under the new mechanism would be allowing pilots to download a file of all their flights/scores and you can "play" with them in Excel/OOO Calc as you see fit.

Point 3.; I think I've made it clear that I'm firmly in the "0-100" camp: statistics on what will essentially be a percentage are ever so easy ;). However, we value the membership's opinion on this matter as nothing is yet written: if you all prefer a "big number" approach, as currently undertaken, *LET US KNOW*

Point 4.; I, as much as any of you, are fully aware of the skills difference between online and offline flying, especially in the departure and arrival phases of flight - TBH, I've not noticed a great deal of difference in cruise though, and that's where the majority of most flights are made. I personally feel that a flat "online flight" bonus better reflects this than an online time-based bonus does, with an additional "overall flight time" bonus, and then with the new pilot skills points added in you should be rightly rewarded, whether online or offline.

Points 5. and 6. I cannot really add any more to; I've either made my point(s) clearly elsewhere in this thread, or it's stuff I can't really comment on (as I'm not developing the FLv4 client ;D)
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Offline EHM-2387 Eric-Jan

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2009, 11:30:45 am »
A very good and enlighting post, Andrei ! Thank you for taking the time to write it all down.

An extensive post warrants an extensive answer ;)
I'll follow your numbering, and give you my opinion on the matter.

1) The two scores idea suits me well. I will probably not end up high on either one score, because I do not fly very often (nor very well ;)). Recently I even slipped into the inactive state as far as PP is concerned... I will not accumulate as many bonusses, nor will I accumulate as many penalties (if still applicable) as my frequent flyer friends will.

2) A bonus system is a good approach. It's positive, motivating, instead of negative, punishing. A FAC reset, for me, is good thing. But then again I'm near the bottom of the PP penalty pit at this moment, so I can only be better off ;) With that, I am assuming that the reset will be a one time thing. I don't think a yearly reset should even be considered. If one can earn his (her) way back by flying properly, then that should do.

3) An absolute value has one big drawback: It becomes impossible to compare to others. Because my one near perfect flight will only get me 63 points (example), while some Andrei (example :)) has flown 10 terrible flights in the same month, and therewith accumulated 127 (example) points. So, for mutual comparison reasons, an average value would be best. So my vote is for the average value. Of cause it has a drawback: it does not reflect the fact that someone could be flying 24/7 and exposing the network(s) to the EHM callsign. But then again, the total number of hours flown is kept in a different statistic elsewhere, and combined with a proper average score gives a good indication of the pilot's presence and quality of flying.

4) I have no problem with a bonus for online flying. Online helps the company gain name awareness, so it should be "rewarded". Offline flying has less workload (no real person ATC, so it can be ignored, or even turned off, if that suits you best), so less bonus sounds fair. And yes, the bonus should be proportional to the flight duration. I am of the opinion that it can even be a linear relationship. The un-linearity (is that a word?) for longer vs shorter flights will automatically come into place with event driven bonusses. Most events are defined near take-off and landing, so the majority of points can be gained by completing a flight correctly, and then some for cruising.

5) Wonderful, if a time delay for error correction can be implemented! Takes away a lot of the current hassle with those overspeed issues due to radical wind changes and the accidental light switching issues :)
On the overspeed issue: I think a distinction needs to be made between a "structural" overspeed, and a "regulatory" overspeed. By that I mean that the overspeed warning bell denotes a different overspeed than the ">250 KIAS <FL100" rule. The first is defined basically by Newton and can cause an immidiate disintegration of the aircraft. The regulatory one is in place to set boundaries that make ATC procedures possible and workable (and nowadays we like to add the emissions to the reasoning behind it). In my opinion, the latter is less severe.
Oh, and by the way: in pt. 5 you are talking about "penalties" again. I assume you mean "missed bonusses"? ;)

6) Woopie!!!

- Save in progress and resume: I can have an attempt at crossing the pond!!! Would always have to be offline, though... Not a problem for me, but I would not be able to get a 100% bonus score...

- break a flight into two pieces: Great! Would that also mean a safe landing on a highway, followed by a continuation to the destination (like a SAR mission, perhaps) is possible? I want to implement something like that in a tour I am working on which I might make available to EHM in due time. Would be nice if it could be a PP tour ...

- No live internet connection needed: great too! As things are now, I need all the resources I can free up to have FS running smoothly. I don't need any network traffic (could even kill the virus scanner) with the network cable unplugged...

- More comprehensive flight selection: bring it on! I'll form my opinion then...


Conclusion: I like where this is heading. Keep up the good work.
If you need any hand- or footwork (beta testing, e.g.) gimme a shout. I'd be more than happy to assist in any which little way I can.

Eric-Jan
EHM-2387 Eric-Jan Oud
VA Management: Operations Officer

Offline EHM-0975 Ragnar

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Re: ProPilot FAC
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2009, 02:19:27 pm »
I'm liking the way this is looking (not just the score reset which I would benefit greatly from  ;) ). Jan-Eric says a lot of good stuff, so I'd like to say 'hear, hear' to his post. That doesn't mean I'll be totally quiet though...

%-counting and average is the way to go, in my opinion.

To further encourage improvement and showing development I'd suggest some graphs showing personal FAC over time (as Hector did above) in a few ways (total, last 3 or 6 months etc) as well as top lists. I happen to have a great php script on-hand for drawing graphs on-the-fly from date-based MySQL data, if needed. Also possibility of downloading of data as csv or xls for those who want to play with it is a good idea.

I personally don't fly online, but I really think those who do should benefit. My suggestion is that online flying get (for example) up to 10% extra (making 110% possible) to signify that it is an added value, rather then required. If I get 92% before addition on a flight online, I would get 92+9=101%. For 87 I'd get 87+8=95% etc.

I've said it before, but I really think it's a good idea to keep the calculation as simple to understand as possible, today PP is to much of a 'black box', calculations being made that I have to search the forum to maybe get a grip on.

100'%' to start a flight, set deductions for errors, extra deduction for multiple errors, up to 10'%' extra for flying online, drop to 0 when crashing, average (for different time periods) is simple, clean and understandable.

The only drawback I see is that the guys who fly the most and best (top of current PP list) does not really get their due from it, they'll 'just' be 100 or 110%. I think that might be solved through web interface (who flew the most >=100% flights, etc...). I think it's important that these guys should be shown as the great examples they are.  :)

I'd like to volunteer for beta testing FL4, specifically in Wine (Linux) (can't get FL3 to work there even though WideFS does), but also in Windows if needed. I'm not one of the guys who fly a lot, but I do have lots of programming and IT experience.

 

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