Online Training

[EHM-1671 Ben]

Hi,

Recently Bruno made a post saying that EHM didn't tolerate parallel training on IVAO. Assuming, of course, that he means Javier, Matt and I (I haven't heard of anyone else doing this) I am of course going to stop the training. My question is: what is the problem with this training on IVAO? I mean, if Matt didn't help me out like this on IVAO I would know very little about the system and how it works. Sorry for breaking the rules! You certainly did get my attention.

So, in light of this, is Murray the only person at EHM trained enough to train us?

[EHM-0948 Bruno]

Hi Ben,

As we said before, yes, Murray is the responsible person to organize online training events. Normally we will also join more staff members to help the training event.

Also, and regarding to this situation, we posted messages on the topic explaning that those pilots should stop it, and even we send U2U messages to those ones.

In conclusion, if any EHM pilot needs help like, for instance, online training, and if this pilot wants to be trained by our VA, he needs to request it on our VA and not (with all respect to Matt, Javier, etc) to other pilots (who are, logically, glad to help too).

Kindly Regards,

[EHM-1358 Tim]

Surely theres no harm in a bit of help.

[EHM-1671 Ben]

That's what we though Tim, surely there would be no harm in this. And about those U2U messages Bruno, I didn't get any. So, a call out to Murray: would you please help me with IVAO (big ask, I know)?

[EHM-1500 Jim]

Have to agree with you Tim. Bruno, i respect your opinions as head of our VA and rules are rules but surely there is no harm in VA members helping out other new comers to our VA with some on-line training?? I think it demonstrates our community spirit and why most of us have chosen and stayed loyal to Euroharmony? Only my thoughts and obviously we will adhere to your decisions. Jim

[EHM-0948 Bruno]

Hi,

The question is not that.
Logically there is no harm to help anyone that we want to, outside of EHM, to join and learn how to fly on IVAO.

The question is if this is being done to train EHM pilots, then the first line of action is to ask EHM if we can train them and not auto-decide that maybe I can train them.

On January, we had showed to our pilots our 2006 plans, and on it is the building of our EHM Academy (more than just a training dept, but a carreer dept), and it just shows how sensible we are to this topic.
Also, on the next week we will have a new staff member to help Murray on online training.

So, if anyone of you needs help on IVAO, and wants to be trained under EHM procedures, just give us a call .. We will gladly help you all.

[EHM-1908 Steve]

I understand the problem here.The management do not want un-trained pilots doing things in-correctly on IVAO which would reflect on the V.A. has a whole and the reputatation of other EuroHarmony pilots.
That said when you try to use the training request link on this site it does not work.I myself tried to request training but was unable to do so.I have over the last week or so read everything i can find and asked many questions in the forums before taking my first online flight.I have done a couple now but still need to do a lot more before i can say i feel comfortable with it,
Perhaps management needs to look at putting together some sort of event for trainee online pilots ?

[EHM-0361 Karsten]

I really have to agree with Tim. But it look like it isn't allowed for pilot to help each other out. But theres an easy way to by-pass this rule. Don't call it training, just call it a group flight or that is perhaps no long allowed either, unless a member of the MT is part of it.

edit: I was a little slow with my message, but I guess theres nothing new in that (me being slow )
Yes Steve, I agree there could be something about what you say about the company images. But you can be welltrained and still make a lot of bad mistakes that can reflect badly on the company. But I guess I can read between the lines, the MT wants you make mandetory online flying lessons before you can fly online for EHM. Guess that's another reason why I'm not flying online.

[EHM-1343 Jonathan]

I think the fact is that we have a VFA that nobody is using, after people like Murray have worked long and hard to set up...and then (with all respect matt) people just come along and show up recruiting people to come to there own lessons.

I think there is a difference here...there should be no problem (as Karsten said) in doing a group flight, and then offereing advice along the way just like Murray and I did for Javier yesterday.

Again with all respect to matt, the management cannot be sure your teaching the pilot correctly. I think maybe we should offer a scheme that allows pilots to gain an instructor badge afteer passing a test on the site (iain suggested something similar to this)

If the link didnt work, perhaps we should have said something to the online flying -dept in order to get it fixed quicker.

In my opinion, there is no problem in 'helping' pilots get online - Just like ben (EHM-1365) did for me, but when you start recruiting people away from the VA to your own sessions, it becomes a different matter...

Cheers guys, Razza!

[EHM-1821 Javier]

Ok. I understand. Murray, train me;)

[EHM-1908 Steve]

"I tried the training link on the Euroharmony site but it didn't work (Request training online first time online IAVO)"

This was posted in the forums 21st June:o

[EHM-1821 Javier]

Thats sounds like me. is it?

[EHM-1671 Ben]

Ok, I fully understand now! Thanks for your help guys. I have the respect the management's decisions for the training policies and look forward to training with you guys in the future.

[EHM-1343 Jonathan]

ok...sorry about that then Steve, Im not sure if the other MT may have seen this but i must have overlooked it, sorry on my part.

Im sure this  issue is cleared up now and everyone understands the rules and regs...

[EHM-0654 Murray]

And just to add my 2 [pence/cents/centimes] worth to this discussion;

I *personally* have no problem with anyone training anyone else in how to fly -  online or otherwise. Flight training *per se* is a good thing and we all benefit from the experience of more capable pilots/controllers.

As an EHM Management Team member (and specifically, the responsible MT member) I *do* have a problem with people organising "EuroHarmony Training Sessions" where the MT haven't been forwarned/had a chance to get involved.

Any one of the MT is more than capable of providing training in online flying and so forth (lest we forget, Ben is the IVAO GB-TAC and an ex. MT member...), so even though I'm not about for half this month, pilots can still request training in the forums if the VFA page isn't working (which Steve suggests it isn't...)

So, if any of you want to organise training sessions outside of EuroHarmony ("parallel" as Bruno terms them), go for it - I'm doing my practical training for the IVAO Flight Captain's exam and am spending quite a lot of time online with the IVAO-GB training department, practicing my VFR procedures, but I do so using a non-EuroHarmony callsign EDIT: and I don't make use of the EuroHarmony forums to arrange it (which is perhaps this is the most important "thing" in respect of recent post(s) from Bruno and the behind-the-scenes discussions within the MT...)

The only thing I ask, on behalf of the Online/Training department, is you please do not associate the "EuroHarmony" name with such training sessions unless it's EHM management mandated. We, the pilots and management of EHM, have spent more than a few years building a certain reputation for professionalism on both IVAO and VATSIM! I for one don't want to see that reputation diminished.

@Ben/Javier/Matt/Steve: As I say, I'm away for my summer pilgrimage to Le Tour on the 5th (until the 16th), but if you email me directly with your goals for a first session of training, I'll see what I can come up with in the intervening time. (And if that's too "open ended" for you, how about basic RT procedures and a simple flight using IFR procedures, since IFR has more 'bits' to it and that's what you'll tend to fly in your EHM 'career'... There's a reason real-world pilots tend to start with VFR)

[EHM-0948 Bruno]

Originally posted by Merlin
... But I guess I can read between the lines, the MT wants you make mandetory online flying lessons before you can fly online for EHM. Guess that's another reason why I'm not flying online...

I think the idea is the oposite of that.
We never made mandatory that you first should have EHM online flying lessons before jumping in on IVAO with EHM callsign. Actually we just say that you need to respect IVAO rules to fly there, and if you do that, then you can use your EHM-xxx callsign.

Remember that we don't have any kind of special relation with IVAO or VATSIM besides the normal one (being a VA partner). So, if you fly there, you need to respect their rules. Our rule is applied only to the callsign and to the remarks field on the IVAp.

Regards,

[EHM-1821 Javier]

About our training sessions, Murray, basically, it is weekly on sunday 08:00z unless anything crops up.  About what we are training on each day depends on Matt.

[EHM-0948 Bruno]

Hi,

Just want to inform that the Request Training page is working again.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Regards,

[EHM-0361 Karsten]

I agree that no one should recruiting people and run parallel training sesions. unless they have the okay from the MT. Just like no one should recruiting people people for other airlines or things like that. And it goes without saying that we should respect the rules of IVAO or VATSIM. But  that has never been the issue.

But as for this rule about nobody else are allowed to train others, unless they have a green light from the MT. I still disagree, and let's just leave it at that. Because it's a rule you can't check, just like our 15 min rule.

edit: btw this will be my last posting the next 2 month.

[EHM-0654 Murray]

Originally posted by Merlin
But as for this rule about nobody else are allowed to train others, unless they have a green light from the MT. I still disagree, and let's just leave it at that. Because it's a rule you can't check, just like our 15 min rule.

Karsten, hope you read this before you "go offline".

I guess you could think of me as the "moderate voice" of the MT in all this; it wasn't me that first raised these training sessions as an issue because, as I say above, I don't have a problem with peer training per se.

The problem, if I can have a go at speaking for those MT members that did express concern in private and have chosen to remain publicly silent was that:

a. the forum was being used for their organisation, and

b. the EuroHarmony name was being associated with these peer training session, but they weren't EHM mandated events; as such, they had the potential to bring the VA disrepute, given the good reputation that all of us that fly online for EHM have worked so hard to get.

Having said that, as you so rightly say yourself, if Ben/Javier/Matt want to continue with their Sunday morning "jaunts", using non-EHM callsigns and discussing it via email (as a for instance), well that's outside of EuroHarmony "jurisdiction" and as such there's nothing for the MT to get upset about.

[EHM-1883 Matt]

I have no problem with anything like that. I will take the test once we have agreed on something

One thing I don't get is that earlier, Bruno said that he asked me to stop training in topics, he's used U2, and other ways, but I have not recieved U2's, I have not seen these posts, and Javier told me that Murray gave me permission to train, so I wasn't trying to do something without permission, I thought I had permission, so I'm sorry if I went against the rules in anyway, but I was told what I was doing is fine, so I hadn't a clue what was going on.

And, no offence taken, for all those people saying all due respect. I understand completely what you are trying to say.

On this matter, I was thinking how about we have teachers for different departments, so we can have one doing Phraseology, and one doing Glidescope patterns, and one doing radios etc. and there'd be tests for the department you'd want to teach in, for example, I'd like to teach Phraseology, while Javier might want to teach basic skills.

I ope you like my idea.

[EHM-1703 Philip]

Well nice to see a healthy debate taking place, this must be the busiest day in the forums for some time!!!

Seeing as everyone else is getting in on the act, I think I will add my opinion.

IMHO there is nothing wrong with one member training another so long as that person is either qualified or is "CERTAIN" that they are training the correct procedures. Lets face it, if I was to perform a training session and everything I told you was wrong, what impression would you get of our VA?

I think the forums are used on a daily basis to offer help and advice, and this is encouraged by the MT. We do however request that you don't advertise something that is not sanctioned by the company or that is currently available from the company for the benefit of the membership. It is a bit of a slap in the face for us when members start going above us to arrange their own training sessions when they are offered and monitored by the MT.  I refer to comments such as this:

I think you should have an online lesson, since you seem to be struggling quite alot with IVAO

Four posts down the page:

Haha, I'm still learning myself so I don't know a lot about it. However, xxxx, like xxxx said, if you're keen to come and have a few IVAO lessons with xxxx, xxxx and I then you're more than welcome!!

The next post:

The next lesson will be about phraseology, so, I don't know whta you're like when it comes to that, so If you want to come along, it's sunday at 08:00z

Now don't get me wrong, nobodies intentions are in question, it is the way these members took it upon themselves to act on behalf of the VA and the management by advertising an "online training session" in the companies forums without first requesting training or permission from the MT?

Lastly I would just like to say that I feel that this is also been blown out of proportion somewhat. It is my understanding that Bruno requested that these discussions did not happen, then when they continued, he made the company position clear. If these people want to continue their training, they are more than welcome to do so, all we have asked that it is arranged in such a way that it is not advertised in our forums and that they use a callsign that is not associated with the company. I personally don't see what the problem is with that.

[EHM-1883 Matt]

here here Phil!

I won't use the forums, as I know I did 2 of those posts, so I'm really sorry about this whole matter. This is mainly all my fault, and I am really sorry. I'm sorry if ever since I've joined, I've been a bit of an idiot in some way.