IVAO vs VATSIM: controller habits

[EHM-1001 Robert]

Hi folks,

the main point I open this thread is to place 2+1 technical questions regarding online flying. The background of the story, is I started to fly on VATSIM years ago, and now I fly only on IVAO, and experienced different habits of controllers on the network, and it confuse a little why the IVAO guys do that as they do...

Q1: STAR clearance. I think I never got any STAR clearance on IVAO so far. On VATSIM, as I was flying inside the last CTR area on my way, the controller always reported me the runway I can expect, and he gave me clearance for a given STAR, so I could prepare and program my autopilot miles before the T/D point, so I had enough time to prepare. On IVAO, the CTR positions tell me the runway in use, and that is all. I can never know where they will lead me via vectors.

Q+1: ...the above situation is very confusing, when I got a holding command over an intersection that is not on my "possible" STAR, and I do not have chart for that intersection, neither have enough time to change my FMC program.

What should I do? Ask for a clearance, or put the desired STAR into my flightplan ? It seems the CTR positions would like to get rid of the approaching planes by vectors, and then they all did their jobs. (Please understand, this is my personal general experience, not made on yesterday fly-in )

Q2: Cruise flight. On VATSIM, when I entered into a new CTR area on my way, the controller always said "proceed as filed" if there was not any problem ahead of me. On IVAO, in the most cases I got an intersection to follow on a direct heading. And in the most cases, that intersection is not on my way, or it is somewhere at the border of the CTR area, and I have to look for it in the charts to know, where the hell is that intersection he wants me to fly inbound. That is very confusing to me.

Any ideas, comments ?

[EHM-1883 Matt]

I see that you were inspired by our conversation!

[EHM-1759 Ricardo]

Hi Robert

Well, after read your post I have some answers, I hope Let's see.

Q1. We don't use STAR's because most of pilots don't use charts or don't have a FMC, or don't use FSNav, neither something like that. So, we prefer to vectorize to not lose so much time explaining what is a STAR, what is a chart, and so on... Unfortunately I never see Division Training Departments online (where I am controlling) to help newbie pilots :[ So, we (controllers) have to spend some time explaining and helping... doing work that doesn't belong us.

SO, PLEASE PILOTS USE CHARTS EVERYTIME, HERE YOU HAVE SOME LINKS (This message is not for you Robert, obviously :] ):
- http://www.ivao.aero/flightops/
- http://www.navdata.at/php/charts/charts.php
- http://usa-w.vatsim.net/charts/


Q2. Ok, on IVAO we do this because you can "win" fuel and time and we (controllers) can expedite traffic. Imagine you enter in LPPC (Portuguese Airspace) from the north to LPMA (Madeira - Funchal), your route will be, for example, EGLL SID.... XERES ASMAR NARTA GALPA LIDRO STAR LPMA. This route will do an "S", so I tell you: "EHM1001, radar contact, proceed direct LIDRO". You win time, I can align and calculate separations easier and we all can be happy
On the other hand I never give a waypoint which doesn't belongs to aircraft's route. It doesn't make sense. This is the reason we have a tool, "Show Route",  on our radar to show us the selected aircraft's route and help us to expedite traffic

Did I answer your questions?

If you have any doubt about my explanation please post again

Best regards Robert

[EHM-1947 Miko]

As a "polygam" pilot who goes both networks (regarding to the control positions online along my route) I made the same experience as Roberto did. The VATSIM Conrolling philosophy is more formal - if it is more realistic - I don't know (I'm no expert).

On IVAO I never print out STARs (not to talk about transitions) because you get allways vectors at the approach.

I don't mind cause it may be more demanding for me to have some more work (finding waypoints, changing the route and so on)  instead of computing the whole flight at the start and then press the APP-Button at the end.

The vectored approach is the real "social part" of the whole game - especially in very busy airspace (Yes I will not forget the Fly In LPPT Approach on Friday ;-)) - and the more unexpected it is the more interesting, isn' it?

The only thing I would desire to be changed is Roberts Q2 thing:

If I fly a freeware/non-FMC-Aircraft and I have to programm a default FS-Flightplan, and you get a "Direct to" while cruising through a XXXX_CTR, you must leave your flightplan and continue may be by using the HDG or LOC/NAV Modus.

OK - I found a solution - I use create a new flightplan using FS Commander and load it again into the GPS - that works - so the prob is not that big.

So what is my intention to write this? Shall something be changed ore not? I don't know - let me say it like Andy in Little Britain: I want that - I dont like it - I want that I dont like it

[EHM-1798 Conrad]

Well, basicly what i do is as follows:

Assign them a STAR & Arrival Runway, if they dont have a clue what they are doing, then i will vector them to the arrival and even perhaps provide a link for the pilot if he doesnt know what it is (on a good day )

second question i agree with Ricardo

[EHM-1358 Tim]

The thing thats gets me is that eberyone controller seems to thing your flying IFR even when you put "VFR FLIGHT!!!" in your flight plan.

[EHM-1798 Conrad]

Yeah, happens with me constantly when im flying VFR, all that most controllers just look at is the route and the departure + destination fields and dont look at RVSM or flight type....

[EHM-1883 Matt]

When you say that controllers give vectors because not many people have charts, FMC etc. well, I did a flight from Heathrow to Schipol, and I did have charts of both airports, but I didn't program the STAR in the FMC because I didn't know what the active runway was at Schipol, so I was coming in at REDFA, and I found out the active runway for landing was 18R, so then I'd have to use the REDFA1A approach. The controller asked me whether I had charts, and I said yes, and that I'd just program REDFA1A into my FMC. Then he said continue with the Approach, so that's what I did, but then as soon as I got onto the approach, he started giving me vectors. I don't know why. Maybe it was a traffic reason? Maybe he got confused considering Schipol is such a busy airport, but did he do the right thing? I looked at IVAE and there were only three planes landing, and on TCAS, they were all far apart, so did he do the right thing on givging me vectors?

[EHM-1001 Robert]

Thank you for the answers.

About Q1:

I think it is okay in the IVAO philosophy, that the most pilots do not have charts, so the controllers give vectors to them. If I remember well (it was a looong time ago) on VATSIM, after the STAR clearance, if I told him I do not have charts, he put me on vectored approach without any problem...but the 1st stage was always the STAR.

Q2: Well, I may understand your point of view. Although it is still confusing if you do not have charts. Why ?
Situation 1 - I got an intersection that is really on my way, and located at the border of the FIR. But I still do not know it, because that waypoint is not part of my flightplan (not an endpoint of a jetway), so I do not know its position if I do not have charts ! In your explanation Ricardo, it is correct, because the asked waypoint is mentioned in the flightplan, so I could identify it and fly there.
Situation 2 - I got a waypoint that is really not on my route. It happened t me more times in crowded FIRs, that I had to follow a deroute track instead of my flighhtplan, and it took minutes until I found the asked waypoint in my charts.

Is not it possible to mention the pilot somehow, that the asked waypoint is on his route or not ? For example: "EHM1001 direct XXXXX intersection from your flightplan" or "EHM1001 deroute to XXXXX intersection, turn heading YYY".

Thank you.

[EHM-1798 Conrad]

Originally posted by EHM-1883
When you say that controllers give vectors because not many people have charts, FMC etc. well, I did a flight from Heathrow to Schipol, and I did have charts of both airports, but I didn't program the STAR in the FMC because I didn't know what the active runway was at Schipol, so I was coming in at REDFA, and I found out the active runway for landing was 18R, so then I'd have to use the REDFA1A approach. The controller asked me whether I had charts, and I said yes, and that I'd just program REDFA1A into my FMC. Then he said continue with the Approach, so that's what I did, but then as soon as I got onto the approach, he started giving me vectors. I don't know why. Maybe it was a traffic reason? Maybe he got confused considering Schipol is such a busy airport, but did he do the right thing? I looked at IVAE and there were only three planes landing, and on TCAS, they were all far apart, so did he do the right thing on givging me vectors?

Vectors are allways given in STAR approaches. You will come to an intersection where you have to gain ATC clearance to pass. Ie, when i assign STAR's to people, say LAM3A for EGLL, i will tell them :

"EHM1798, On passing Lambourne, heading 270"

This will start the arrival proceedure for heathrow (approach plates)

Basicly, the STAR finishes at the ending intersection, ie: LAM3A, ends over LAM

[EHM-1883 Matt]

ah! Thanks Conrad;D

[EHM-0654 Murray]

To expand on Conrad's explanation just a little, a STAR is basically made up of two points: the IAF (Initial Approach Fix), and the FAF (Final Approach Fix), plus the routing to get between the two. After the FAF, if you're under ATC control, you may well be vectored onto the ILS, otherwise use one of the landing plates to get onto the runway.

A big problem with charts is that both the STAR and the "landing" charts are called approach charts, which if we are honest is a little confusing.

[EHM-1358 Tim]

I remember LGAV having STARs that went all the way to the ILS.

[EHM-0654 Murray]

Tim, it happens, the FAF on the GANSU STAR to RWY 03 at LPPT  puts you on the ILS at the OM at 2700', if you're using AUTOLAND you should be in APP mode crossing the FAF with VOR LOC established...

While some airports have wiggly approaches from the FAF, that are ATC "driven" (EGLL, LHBP), which give the controllers a chance to coordinate disparate traffic streams into a single whole to land on one or two runways, other airports put the wiggles into the STARs and associated stacks, and even operate multiple runways for approaches (EHAM is good for that). On IVAO traffic levels are such that it is rarely necessary to operate real-world STAR procs, but it's just one of the many reasons I really love the IVAO-GB EGLL real-world events...

[EHM-0001 Gergely]

Q1. A STAR is to regulate arrivals when there are lots of planes in the TMA (5 or more arriving at the same time). So if there's only a few planes arriving, there's no need to use the STARs in order to minimize delays (flying a STAR can add 5-15 minutes to the flight time, and you use more fuel). So it's a courtesy on behalf of the ATC, to get you down earlier. However, if you still want to fly the STAR, just tell the ATC (request to proceed with ... arrival) and I'm sure you'll be recleared for it.

Q+1. Just ask the ATC for holding instructions and he'll tell you (e.g. inbound track 150, right hand, 1 min legs)

Q2. This is a 'shortcut', you skip a portion of your route and fly a shorter route, e.g. your route was A-B-C-D-E and ATC clears you from B to E, so you'll arrive earlier and use less fuel. However if you can't (or don't want to) comply, you can tell him 'request to proceed via flight plan route' and he'll leave you to fly the planned legs.

Gergely