EuroBusiness - do we need it?

[EHM-1689 Lukasz]

Hi,

I want to suggest something - do we really need EuroBusiness Division? In my opinion this division should be replaced  by other division (ex. low-cost division - just like in real world) - it will be more realistic. Big aircrafts from EuroBusiness should fly in Euroharmony (B777) or Euroholiday (Tu-204). Low cost division fleet should consist of our all B-738 for example (it means, that Euroharmony 5-class fleet will be consist only of A-320):[. Aircrafts like Falcon 50 or Pilatus would be dispositional aircraft of our company. What do You think?

Remember - it's only suggestion :|

Regards,
Myszkin.

[EHM-1703 Philip]

Well Myskin, you raise a good point and IMHO there are some other things to consider here:

Firstly and probably the main thing, RW airlines that have tried to compete in both the Loco and Hico markets have invariably come unstuck and ended up selling or folding their Lo cost ops.

Secondly I feel that we would be flying the same routes with the same aircraft as our Main Div if we were to take on a Loco model for one of our divisions. A Lo-cost option gives very little veriety to the airline.

The Business division gives our pilots the ability to fly a more diverse range of aircraft to a more extensive range of airports. It is not necesarily a matter of mirroring real world ops but giving our pilots more choice. Then we get in to things like, how many Loco's fly in to EGLC for instance? The airlines that fly there are almost all business charter airlines. That is just an example.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a point that has merits and warrants discusion it's just not something I would be interested in personally.

[EHM-1001 Robert]

It is always a big discussion why we have Divisions at all. I think the main point as Phil said to have a larger variety of airfields you can fly to/from. I think of our Divisions that all 3 are charter airlines with their own fleet, with their own typical destinations and goals. At EuroCargo we fly to typical cargo destinations, and have flights where the Main aircrafts would not fit. EuroHolidays have the typical holiday / vacation destinations with large not-so-comfortable aircrafts. While EuroBusiness have the most weird and unique destinations with typical business / luxurious airplanes.

I think EuroBusiness is the typical charter airline. In my opinion there should not be a coherent timetable at all. There was a time when we operate this Division after a changing 2-weeks schedule, following real world events. But somehow it did not give more popularity to the division. We had thoughts maybe we will reorganize the whole biz fleet to include only small jets, but those would require again a very special timetable.

It is a sensible part, and afterall we thought that this will be the best type of operation: wide variety of Business aircrafts, and wide variety of constant destinations.

You could ask why do not we use the Boeing BBJ, or the Learjets, etc...but the reason came from our general fleet policy: only popular and real types, and minimal duplication among the divisions.

[EHM-1592 Niels]

I think that a loco division will end up very close to EuroHolidays, 'caus that div. is flying to popular destinations allready.

The only advantage i see is adding chairs to the existing planes, like 175 pax in a B738.

[EHM-1883 Matt]

I've often thought of this, but if anything, I find the most "unreal" division to be EuroHolidays. Cargo is ok, as alot of airlines also use cargo, Business is kind of the same, but Holidays? It makes no sense. I think that it's a great idea that you can fly when you want, but I think it's the most "unreal"

Just one thing I'd like to say though, regarding ALL divisions is that some of the flights for them are ridiculous. Some flights have class 3 EuroBusiness, which is the same as a class 6 main division! I don't want to get rid of any divisions, as I like all of them, but I think the timetable should be re-thought. Cargo division has good flights, but I mainly mean EuroHolidays, and EuroBusiness.

A good example is LGAV-LDZA. Look at the flight on the timetable.

[EHM-0005 Maarten]

Or LFSR - LFPG :]

I know the MT is working on the timetable, so it'll all be fine.

[EHM-1689 Lukasz]

Robert, Matt

I always thought, that a "charter role" was playing by Euroholiday. Eurobusiness is typical charter division? - well, it's interesting point of view.

Different people - different opinion :>

Greetings.

[EHM-1001 Robert]

Okay okay, the Holidays role is more a charter in real world, but not in EHM.

[EHM-1703 Philip]

Why is EuroHolidays the most unreal division? What about Monarch, Thompsonfly, (Ex Britannia) My Travel (Ex Airtours) these are all real world charter airlines that operate almost solely to transfer pax to their Package Holiday destination even major airlines operates charter flights to Holiday destinations. (most carry cargo as well by the way)

With regards to the timetable, now you have opened a can of worms there!

Yes, some routes use multiple classes in different divisions, some even have the same route in the same division operated on different classes. (Lookup EGCC-EGLL) This serves a purpose though, to give you, the Pilot, more choices! You can choose the destination, the division and the aircraft. Whats wrong with that?

So this begs my next question, as Pilots what do you want? Realism or Options..... Lets face it, how many real world Airlines operate a schedule of over 5,000 flights per week? After doing a small search on OAG of the Flights listed above (LGAV-LDZA & LFSR-LFPG) I found it is not possible to fly direct on either of these routes in  the real world so therefore should we remove it from the schedule? Should we only include routes that are operated in the real world? If so, I defy you to find a definitive source of Cargo operations for me to copy so should we remove the Cargo division because we can not gaurantee it's realism?

Seriously though , I am interested as the timetable has become my baby. The last flights we added were realistic flights that are operated in the real world by a similar type of aircraft to the one offered in our timetable, do you want us to remove flights that are unrealistic or not flown by Real World operators?

In short what we are trying to do is appeal to both camps, the Pilots that want ultra real operations have that option, the pilots who just want to jump in a plane and fly from A to B cause they like the scenery or they live near by have that option also, I don't think it is a matter of rethinking the schedule, I think it is a matter of a Pilots personal choice and I for one don't want to limit that.

[EHM-1651 Christian]

I totally agree with Phil on this issue, as an "independent" VA, not trying to replicate any realworld Airline. I think we should stay away from restricting ourselves to routes only flown by real airlines. My opinion is that most realistic sectors are covered aswell as sectors not flown by any airline. So for those who prefeere to fly realistic sectors they are free to do that, and those of us who like to fly all our sectors should be allowed to fly those sectors.
I think if we move to only real sectors we decrease the diversity of our VA and I think that's one of the reason this VA is as great as it is.

[EHM-1883 Matt]

Ok, My view on EuroHolidays has changed alot! Fair enough, I agree with Phil on that one;D

however, to do with the timetable, I think you missed my point a bit. You were saying that it gives a pilot more of a choice for what to fly with, and that's a brilliant idea. I've got nothing against it, but what I meant is that some of the flights are too big for that class. You could fly the Embraer 120 to Zagreb from Athens, or you could fly a Boeing. It's a massive difference. It does give pilots a chance to try that flight if they are only class 3, but having attempting those flights, I found it's too long using a tiny plane like the E120, so i'd suggest C4 EuroHolidays, so at least it's easier.

The LGAV-LDZA is quite a bad example though. A better example is the one Maarten described. It's a bit weird to have such a small flight done with a massive plane.


I have nothing against good options for pilots, it's a great idea, but sometimes, I think some of the flights are a bit un-realistic. I don't want to remove any flights, I just think that some of them need a bit of changing. For the majority, the flights are very accurate, but I think some need a little editing.

Personally, I don't think LGAV-LDZA needs editing. Like you said, it's good to have unrealistic ones, since we are a Virtual Airline, we don't have to be COMPLETELY realistic, but some of the flights that you find make no sense at all. That's the only thing that bugs me.

[EHM-1465 Dominic]

Certainly some interesting views raised here, so well done for starting the debate Myszkin!

My view is that, as Phil says, the VA needs to appeal to a spectrum of simmers' interests since a community of 160 active pilots is bound to contain a variety of piloting styles...

Personally I'm very glad that we have such a range of interesting aircraft to use and I really like trying flights to destinations with interesting scenery (indeed half the flights I make are to try out new places!) So I'd personally be sorry if we were tied down only to routes and aircraft that are profitable enough to succeed in the cut-throat real world airline market...

Surely one of the beauties of our simulated world is that we can do things that real life won't allow us to..?

Long live EuroBusiness !!!

[EHM-1671 Ben]

And besides, if EuroHolidays is a valuable asset to EuroHarmony.... if it went, what would happen to my baby the 757?! ;D

[EHM-1612 Paolo]

I think the actual situation is perfect. I personally love eurobusiness, but I enjoy Eurocargo and Euroholidays too, so why should we take away one of these???   I am for the variety, we have a huge fleet, 5000 (5000!!!) flights to do, where is the problem? Can't we join this to the reality?

[EHM-1998 Steven]

I like things the way they are currently set up. One of the reasons I came here after looking for a home for a couple of months, was the varity the EH offers. Before coming here, I made a breif stop at a VA that flys only real world routes. It didn't take long to lose interest. It was a great VA, it just wasn't for me.

I have only been here a short time, but I truly feel at home and love the variety offered here at EH. I can't wait to start my first tour !

[EHM-0948 Bruno]

Hi Steven,

I must then welcome you to our VA .. I hope you will be here for a long time my friend.

Any doubt, you can always ask your Hub Manager, and tell here on the Forum.

(sorry for the off-topic message)
Regards,

[EHM-0361 Karsten]

I can only agree that our friend Myszkin asks a good question. Do we need EuroBusiness? No we don't. I mean EHM would still be the same, we would still have a lot of variety. We may not need EuroBusiness, but we like to have it.  
It's a fact, because the numbers are pretty about that. That EuroBusiness don't get flown as much as the other divisions. EuroCargo has flown nearly 500 and EuroHolidays around 350  more flights then EuroBusiness.
I think one of the big problems is perhaps it can be hard to figur out what is it EHB do, where does it fit in to the big picture. Robert talked about the "old" days when EHB wasn't a timtable division, where it was flight on demand acording to a 2 weeks schedule. I think that was when the division worked as it was surpose to. However that really takes a whole lot of time and effort to make that. And if only 3 or 4 flight are flown a week, then that's a bad investment of MT time.
I myself like EuroBusiness, it's where I have logged the most amount of flighttime. Where most of it is logged back when we had the dynamic schedules. I would really like to see the division to live up to it's potential. So I hope it's all right if I add another question. to this subject. Can we improve EuroBusiness to make it a better division? And of course it goes without saying, something that don't mean killing the MT with a mega workload.

[EHM-1821 Javier]

Might be a little off topic but i have a suggestion

Maybe, we could make EuroBusiness operate flights when theres demand, as in, random flights from the EHB timetable will be active for a couple of days or weeks to fly (like some businessman needs to go where) and after that period, the current flights will go "to sleep" while other flights take their place in the active timetable:)

And also, these flights may not be limited in numbers, maybe in one period, there are a lot of flights while in some periods, it may be very few.

Again, this is just my suggestion:)
I hope you understand it:]

[EHM-1612 Paolo]

I can't imagine what the MT can do to improve eurobusiness, we already know that a division like our EHB can live only in a VA and I like this idea. But I haven't understood why do we need to delete or bring the division to the origins, because I like variety and I think that this is one of the many good things that EHM has.
I think you understand quite easily how much do I love EHB and why I can't imagine EHM without EHB

[EHM-0654 Murray]

And another thing

Some of us really like to fly the baby jets/turbo-props. I still adore the Piaggio P-180 Avanti (I'm doing my IVAO FC exam in it...), the Lear45 remains one of my favourite planes just to "bimble" in, and lets not forget that if you want an ultra-long range B738 you're looking at the BBJ2 with all 9 additional tanks (and I love that KSEA-EGLL non-stop bidness...)