Famous more than 4500 fpm

[EHM-0471 Peter]

Well, I don't want to bug, but what is enough is enough. Recently I got in two different flights for UNHCR the penalty 240 pts for famous more than 4500 fpm vertical speed. O.K. I agree, the FL is working precisely, but what really has surprised me is the fact, that I made the last landing at OYSN under the control of Autopilot almost to the last 5 feet above rw. Swear to God, I started my initial descent and was then descending step by step very carefully ( this approach is super tricky ) all the time with vertical speed at 1000!!! Approaching speed was on final 140 kts, and at touch down 104 kts, but the result was penalty of 240 pts because of 4500 fpm. Couldn't believe to my eyes. I don't understand this, and I think some little more tolerance should be incalculated here, since, as in real life, the last half of the mile and under manual control, everythink may occur. ( the sidewind etc. ) By my oppinion a little bit of the tolerance for this last half mile of descend should be incalculated. A subject for discussion for sure! Any oppinion?

Beside these relevant details, Flight Logger is uniqe tool and excellent as a challenger for us pilots, especially when we need a little bit to be cooled down regarding our super knowledge and skils in virtual flying.

And also just a small question. What is the tolerance we have after passing FL 180 up or down to press B for setting altimeter to proper pressure? 100, 200 or more feet?

Peter :%

[EHM-1838 Andrew]

Originally posted by EHM-0471 Peter
Well, I don't want to bug, but what is enough is enough. Recently I got in two different flights for UNHCR the penalty 240 pts for famous more than 4500 fpm vertical speed. O.K. I agree, the FL is working precisely, but what really has surprised me is the fact, that I made the last landing at OYSN under the control of Autopilot almost to the last 5 feet above rw. Swear to God, I started my initial descent and was then descending step by step very carefully ( this approach is super tricky ) all the time with vertical speed at 1000!!! Approaching speed was on final 140 kts, and at touch down 104 kts, but the result was penalty of 240 pts because of 4500 fpm. Couldn't believe to my eyes. I don't understand this, and I think some little more tolerance should be incalculated here, since, as in real life, the last half of the mile and under manual control, everythink may occur. ( the sidewind etc. ) By my oppinion a little bit of the tolerance for this last half mile of descend should be incalculated. A subject for discussion for sure! Any oppinion?

Beside these relevant details, Flight Logger is uniqe tool and excellent as a challenger for us pilots, especially when we need a little bit to be cooled down regarding our super knowledge and skils in virtual flying.

And also just a small question. What is the tolerance we have after passing FL 180 up or down to press B for setting altimeter to proper pressure? 100, 200 or more feet?

Peter :%

Peter
I echo your sentiments.I have just completed my fifth flight with PP EGLL EGNV I absolutely took care to descend even more slowly than i usually do this time and still as in the other five flights my only penalties where.....you guessed it 240 for exceeding 4500.I was wondering if it might be my FSUIPC version?i will check but think i am up to date.
PS funnily enough i did notice at one point i was 260kts below 10000 briefly but got no penalty for that.
cheers Andy

[EHM-1651 Christian]

There is a higher limet for that, I think it set to 270kt IAS so you can be able to compley with ATC high speed requirments while flying online.

[EHM-1703 Philip]

Are you sure you are getting the error for descending above 4,500 fpm and not exceeding 4,500 fpm on your climb? Remember a lot of the legs are flown with a very lightly loaded aircraft and it is a very powerfull plane that will climb like a rocket when light! You still get a penalty for climbing too fast as well as descending.

Hope this helps,

Phil

[EHM-1838 Andrew]

"You descent on a excessive vertical speed (more than 4500 fpm)."

That is the wording in the error message.
Surly if you tried to climb to quickly you would eventually stall.
cheers Andy

[EHM-0948 Bruno]

Hi,

Peter, your excessive climb/descent penalty was given not on landing, but after take-off. Right after take-off we have the information that you climbed at more than 4500fpm.

Now, to clear things out, you can (and should do), after you land and send the PIREP, check your ACARS information on the Flight Logger to see where did you got the penalty . In this case, the penalty should appear just right after the "Take Off" information part.

I hope I was explicit ...

Safe flights,

[EHM-1838 Andrew]

Hello again
I have just checked my latest flight acars and mine to appears to be a fault on takeoff althought the report gives the impression that it is descent and landing that is the problem.Don't no whats going on but will keep trying.
cheers Andy

[EHM-1617 Iain]

The penalty is incorrectly worded, you get the same wording on the penalty whether you exceeded 4500 on climb or descent I think.

[EHM-1838 Andrew]

AH HA! the fog is lifting.Thanks Iain.Have checked my acars and its climb where i am making the error.I am trying to check the net at the moment for info on climb out speeds.
cheers Andy

[EHM-0654 Murray]

Andrew, what aircraft are using? The 737NG will (annoyingly) climb under CDU control at well over 5000FPM, and the only way I have found under Project Magenta to stop it is to use MCP SPEED and V/S controlled climb until I reach T/C.

[EHM-1838 Andrew]

Hello Murray
I have tried three planes and had the same results with each.BAE 146,FOKKER 100 and EMBRAER 170.But now i ve learnt that the problem is climbing not descent i don't mind because its my fault,not some bug in PP and hopefully i can get my climb out speeds sorted out.
cheers Andy

[EHM-0471 Peter]

Bruno!

Thanks for the explanation. I agree. After seeing ACARS I have to confirm: after takeoff my climbing was to fast!( pulling the stick to much back on me ).  All clear now. I am sinking into the secrets of ProPilot more and more. It is excellent tool, and it's just fine if you now exactly how it works.

But haven't got the answer about pressing button B passing FL 180 up or downway. How many feet is the tolerance?

Peter

[EHM-0948 Bruno]

The tolerance is 500ft (up and down).

What I do is I always configure the A/P to level at FL179. Then, after that I start climbing again and when i reach 18000ft I start pressing much times on the "B" key until it gets 29.92 milibars.

Regards

[EHM-0471 Peter]

Bruno!

Thanks for the information and splendid and most simple idea. Gee, that's very smart and I'll use it immediately. Hope you don't mind. LOL.

Peter

[EHM-1001 Robert]

Funny thing is when you are flying with VNAV on a payware plane. I seen more times that if you have not program waypoint restrictions correctly, it can fly with 6000fpm even, to compensate the route...so, take care and always be prepared to turn off the autopilot.

[EHM-1442 Luis]

@ Robert

You are right, i'm trying to fly the 763 from Level-D and it is, what is happening to me with VNAV engaged.

1 - Easly pass the 4500fpm rate. To correct ,when i see the needle approaching the 4000fpm, i change to VS and reduce the vertical rate.
2 - When in cruise level, some changes in the winds push the aircraft to overspeed. To correct that when i see the speed increasing and passing that one on FMC, i reduce speed until the winds stabilize.

And so i have a lot of penalties and some crashes, until learning how to fly the Level-D 767 with Propilot.

Aircraft correctly configureted and overspeed, remark the crosswind with 91.

[EHM-1001 Robert]

Well, I seen it only at approaches. During the takeoff it is not a problem. Just select Climb-1 or -2 and it will climb smoothly.

But at descend, it usually gave too short distance himself for a nice approach, and during the STAR, it can make very rapid descends. If you fly online its easier, because ATC tells you "Descend to be at 12000 over...VOR" If you program it as restriction into the FMC, it will give a much longer STAR than the default, and you probably survived the quick descends

BTW, I used to set 29.92 at Transition altitude, or at FL100, just after turned off Landing Lights. I do these 2 always at once. Then I will not forget it at FL180

[EHM-1703 Philip]

Do you have a paid version of FSUIPC Luis? Are you using Wind Smoothing? Does this happen when flying onlline or offline?

FSUIPC Offers the ability to smooth out wind changes but unfortunately you have to pay to register the product first. This slows down the rate at which winds change and therfore reduces the risk of Overspeed.

If it happens when flying online, you can turn wind smoothing on in the IVAP configuration utility under the weather section. this does help, but does not completely remove it. If you are cruising at a cost index of 100 you should have enough of a buffer to allow for the IVAP wind changes once you have wind smoothing enabled.

As for the 4500 fpm climb descend problems.... Here are my tips.
I find it comes down to configuration and maintaining speeds manually until 1,000 feet. I do not engage VNAV until 1,000 feet and I manage my speed to VR+10(ish) manually. Derated takeoffs should always be used where possible so if your load allows reduce your take off settings, this helps. (Especially on the 737!) Set manual limits on your Flight Plan. Reduce the risk of  of climbing or descending too steeply by reducing altitude steps between way points on departures and arrivals.

Hope this helps

[EHM-1442 Luis]

The screenshot was taken on the flight EHM-4340 (ENTC-ESNS),flying online and i repeated this flight 3 or 4 times and the aircraft  always entered overspeed more or less in the same place (same distance from departure).

As much as possible, i fly online(IVAO) and with Propilot.

I have the free version of FSUIPC, the wind  smoothing is turned on in the IVAP configuration, but it was not enough, maybe because I was cruising at a cost index of 90.

At the descends and to avoid the 4500fpm penalty, i use to start descend at 40nm from the TD, and it descend softly with a 1000fpm-1500fpm rate.

I use a lot of derated takeoffs, but we must pay attention, because if we are too heavy, it 'll be a problem. I crashed the aircraft taking of from ENTC on account of this....:> and Propilot confused my crash report.....eheheheh.

In my opinion the problem here and as we can see on the screenshot the VNAV is unable to respect the FMC speed limit, when strong crossed winds happens, i was at cruise level (FL320) with a speed limit 0.802 in the FMC and the speed indicator is showing 0.907 and it was coming down when i take the sreenshot, if i remember it went until 0.932.......:>

Summarizing, to fly this beast With Propilot (another beast...eehehh:>),we cannot read the newspaper at Cruise Level, we must be always with attention reading the instruments.

Sorry for this long post, but i think that we can all learn with each others.

Luis
LPPT Hub pilot