Why not fly online?

[EHM-1465 Dominic]

Following some interesting observations since IVAO suspended our VA membership due to having too few active IVAO pilots, I would like to encourage those who don't fly online to have an open discussion with those who do in order to see if any more wish to try out (or return to) online flying, whether on IVAO or VATSIM.

Ask any questions you like and see whether you could be persuaded to try out something new

To start I thought I'd post a link to an IVAO video and a VATSIM one which will serve as an introduction to those who are unfamiliar with this part of the hobby:

IVAO Official Promotion 1

VATSIM Tutorial video

Let us know what you think, your concerns, worries or previous experiences so we can all try and improve this situation

[EHM-2758 Peter]

Hi Dominic

As you opened this new topic, there are two topics now regarding this discussion: yours and the one called "Online Spies". Perhaps those two can be pt together under one topic??

Peter

[EHM-1882 Gian]

Hi Dom and Peter,

I think we really have a good chance to try to develop online flying by promoting, as a starting point, the initiative taken by David with the 007 event between the "4 spies"...wOf course,we would appreciate being joined by other pilots! Personally I am more a VATSIM fan than IVAO...I It is just a "technical" matter: I often have connection problems with IVAO and difficulty in setting the sound with my earphone...also, with FSC there is this continuous error message when downloadind the on line IVAO file.... which I do not know how to get rid of! although, I have to admit, I have the impression that there is more ATC on line with IVAO than VATSIM...Do Euroharmony airplanes appear as such on VATSIM (we know that it is not he case with IVAO...).

Thanks for you great job and looking forward to new developments on this subject!
Gian
EHM-1882

[EHM-2758 Peter]

One of the reasons why EHM-pilots hesitate to get online is, what you mentioned Gian: hard- and/or software problems. If one cannot overcome this first step, the second step will even cause more problems. As I mentioned during former discussions in the forum about this subject, there might be a way to deal with these and other difficulties. How? I already made a suggestion to link an experienced online flyer to a newbie. Another idea might be the founding of a Online Flight Academy, where new pilots might benefit from those who have more experience and want to spend some time supervising. What important is to know, if there's a need of such a flightschool. I really have no idea how many EHM pilots, who fly on a regulare base, need help to get online! I even don't know how many of our active members read the forum messages about this subject!

If there is interest, I'm gladly willing to contribute in any way to get my fellow members online. The Euroharmony staff however should show the willingness to take the lead in this matter.

Peter

[EHM-1465 Dominic]

Hi Dominic

As you opened this new topic, there are two topics now regarding this discussion: yours and the one called "Online Spies". Perhaps those two can be pt together under one topic??

Peter

The purpose of this new topic is to concentrate on the issue of online flying and the reasons "to" or "not to" whereas the other topic is concerned with the 007 Event - that's why I started a new topic to make it obvious that this was all about online flying

As to the EHM MT taking the lead Peter, as you know from previous communications there is a real issue at the moment with the amount of free time some MT members have and we have to therefore concentrate on our primary responsibilities - keeping the VA going. This is also why we advertised for someone to take the online guru role forward without results.

[EHM-2758 Peter]

Hi Dominic,

Ok, you're right. We did discuss this item before. Since there hasn't been any following up since then and I do see the need of promoting online flying, I'm willing to make a humble start to get our members online. I hope that when things are made more concrete, we can count on experienced online pilots to give a helping hand. I'll send you an email with a basic plan for an Euroharmony Online Flightschool.

Peter

[EHM-1465 Dominic]

That's great Peter, thanks very much

To everyone else - please share your thoughts and experiences here about online flying so we can gain a better understanding of how to help those who are interested

[EHM-2581 Dirk]

Here is my penny's worth. I have for a long time had the urge to fly online but it seemed an overwhelming task on my first try which I eventually gave up on.    I have discussed with members of management and other pilots who have all prompted me to take the jump. And now the humdrum on the Forum. This prompted me as well to try - what with all the anxious pilots that would like to - one should surely not be without assistance.  I ran into so many obstacles which eventually left me bogged down and this is where I am currently. Hardware was not a problem in my case, however the software one needs to become familiar with is scary and this is exactly what Peter refers to. I tried but eventually had to write to IVAO and the basis of this communication is attached hereto under "First Steps".   Problems arose on all the software bits. The setting up of these various required settings is scary - to sat the least.  Take "Teamspeak" - there is a manual available. I went through some of the items briefly until I came upon "Connect". Here the 4x4's wheels fell off and left the wheelnuts hidden somewhere in the mud !. There are about 40+ chapters in this manual alone with "Connect" being on the early pages. For ease of reference I again attach a Snip thereof. Yes many people may find this so easy, but this newbie (to online flying) has fallen off the cart with the terms being used here. This is but one small indicator of what else is there. Those of you out there that have tried and gave up, please give your comments so one can try to establish a core.
I am going to try VATSIM to see what it is like. However along the way I heard that VATSIM concentrates more on the American Flying and IVAO more on Europe. And we are a European based airline. So much for my input. I see no light up ahead but will be very sad to not be able to venture through to the day my first on-line flight is undertaken.     After all, there are some awards that can only be achieved by flying on-line....
Dirk Uys
2581

[EHM-1908 Steve]

Hi Dirk
I am suprised that you say the software is difficult to setup because in my opinion IVAP is the most simple unless running on a remote pc which can sometimes be a pain to get right.Regarding setting up TS very little needs to be done and reading to much of what can be out dated manuals will lead you down the wrong road.Perhaps you could do it in sections.Install the IVAP program following the on screen prompts when you have done this then report back and we will go from there.

Hope that helps

Steve

[EHM-2581 Dirk]

Hi All, Steve as I said there will surely be those, such as yourself it seems, who find the setting up to be pudding. This was not, however, meant for the gurus but the many people that have given up along the way due to hurdles which seemed to be too high. In any case Steve, the whole idea of this discussions on the Forum was to investigate and establish possible reasons for pilots not flying online in order to try and find ways to get more pilots, such as I, to take the step. I am sure you mean well by saying it is easy but if that were so for everybody then would it be regarded as necessary for such a comprehensive manual to be placed at disposal. I repeat, Steve, this is not about your personal opinion but for the people who excell in other fields than being computer gurus. I can remember writing about MTL, Teamspeak etc not not specifically IvAp.  To put this into perspective I have just received a reply from IVAO and it opens with the sentence:- "First of all we are well aware that the step up for new members can be quite high". Thus it seems that I am not the only surprise factor here. I am convinced you mean well with your input, Steve.
I have gained a wealth of knowledge in the reply from IVAO and am attaching the contents to this in the hope that it will be of help to the others who may be pondering the indea of carrying on or not. Please read also the second paragraph with interest.
Kind regards,
Dirk

[EHM-2758 Peter]

Hi Dirk,

Thanks for your contribution of this topic. I can imagine that these problems you describe has taken away all your enthusiasm to go on getting online. In anticipation of a possible solution for all those with the same kind of experiences, I would like to offer you my help. No manual, but a kind of helpdesk that will get you online step by step.

All we need is some mutual planned time, by preference a Skype-connection and some patience. If you think I can be of any assistance, please write me an email in which you specify: availability, Skype address, Flightsim type!

Peter

[EHM-2758 Peter]

Leg 20 of the 007-James Bond tour: LIPZ-LGKR
Pilots: EHM2589-David, EHM1829-Trevor, EHM1882-Gian, EHM2758-Peter also known as The Spies.
time: September 18 2012, 19:00 Zulu
ATC: LIPZ_GND, LIPZ_TWR, LIPZ_APP

Who will follow us next time on leg 21: LGKR-LSGS?

[EHM-2387 Eric-Jan]

Online flying sure is fun, since you get to meet fellow (EHM, and other) pilots.

I always enjoyed our conversations during events and tours, even though the only one using voice was the 10 year anniversary one. The .chat function in IvAp does the job as well. Of course, during the initial and final stages of the flight, there is not much room for typing casual conversation, but pre-light, during cruise, and especially post-flight, I very much enjoyed the personal contact.
Now, why is all this in the past tense? Basically it comes down to one technical issue, and one time issue: Since I am flying X-Plane10 as my primary sim, and X-IvAp crashes my sim, I have not been able to connect recently. The time issue prevents me from doing much more than trying to finish the 007 tour (offline ) in time, let alone dig deeper into the whole connection issue, or get to learn to fly the FSX A318 (I tried, and crashed terribly due to lack of control). My online flying has been so long ago that I just received the dreaded "you are no longer an active IVAO user" mail, last weekend. Mind you: I only have an IVAO account, so maybe adding a Vatsim account may solve my XP10 connection issue ... That would only mean I have two accounts to keep "alive", and that conflicts a little with the time issue again ...

Having said all that, I am sure that I will be flying online soon after finishing the 007 tour. If I cannot fix the X-IvAp issue, then surely with FSX. I have the Pilots of the Carribean Tour assigned, which I fly in the Aerosoft DA-20 Katana4X anyway, so that is FSX bound.

The joy of flying online for me is mostly in the social aspect: I get to interact with other humans, instead of AI traffic and ATC. Also, it "forces" me to better prepare my flight, which I find to be the starting point of the fun of flying. The anticipation of the flight, planning it, and then executing as planned, gives me far greater satisfaction than just jumping in the plane, and taking off to wherever.
ATC is a different thing. In general, online ATC guys (and girls) are friendly and helpful. On the larger airports, you (as a pilot) are expected to more or less know the procedures for that airfield, but on the smaller fields, they usually take the time to guide you through the process, if you indicate you need some help. But I can see how that can be intimidating at first. So why not try to first fly online in, say the Caribbean (excluding TNCM, TNCA, TNCB, TNCC). Good chance you will not even encounter ATC, only some other pilots. And if you do, they will have the time (and attitude) to help you out the best they can.

Setting up IvAp for FS9 or FSX has never been a problem for me. I seem to remember that I just installed IvAp, including the full MTL, and TeamSpeak (which I think was included in the installation process of IvAp, but I am not sure there, anymore). Then I started TS as a standalone application only once to check if the settings were with a Push To Talk (PTT) button, rather than sound-level (squelch) activated, and that's it (I nowadays heve the PTT buttan assigned to a joystick button through Joy2Key). No configuration of servers needed whatsoever, to the best of my knowledge. I am sure I have never read, nor had the need to read, the TS manual. No need to start up TS, IvAp does that for you, and chooses the TS channel that corresponds to the COM frequency set in IvAp (or on the radio stack).
So maybe for Dirk, the solution to the technical side of his problem could be to uninstall IvAp and TS, re-install both with default values, and just take it from there. Try to connect (connection parameters are only entered in IvAp) at a remote airfield in the middle of nowhere (so you won't be in the way of anybody), and just see if you can get connected. If that works, try to connect a a remote airfield in the neighbourhood of a controlled airfield, and see if you can tap in on ATC conversation. Than all that remains is to ask a friend to log on as ATC at some remote airport, connect there yourself, and then try an talk back and forth. If that all works, you are ready for the wonderful world of online flight!

[EHM-1882 Gian]

Hi Peter,

great pictures thank you! There still one thing I do not understand: how can it be that you guys appear in EHM liveries, while I am in Air France one, although I actually use the 007 EHM A318? Any idea to appear in EHM livery next time?

Looking forward to fly next leg again in group!

Gian
EHM-1882

[EHM-2387 Eric-Jan]

Hi Gian,

that has to do with the representation of the other aircraft on the IVAO network. They are displayed as AI aircraft in FS(9/X). In order to have airplanes displayed in a correct colourscheme, IVAO has set up a library of AI planes, which gets installed together with IvAp. This library is called the MTL. In order for others to see EHM liveries, they need to be added to the MTL by IVAO, and members should download MTL updates every now and then to keep up-to-date. IVAO will only accept liveries that are delivered to them is a very specific format, and by V.A.'s that are recognised as V.A.'s by IVAO. Also, I believe there is a maximum of 10 liveries per V.A. (although the number may differ a bit, I am sure there is a set maximum). So there is three things for a V.A. to comply with: 1 - be recognised as V.A., 2 - deliver the liveries in the correct format 3 - limit the numeber of liveries to the maximum number.
We recently lost our V.A. status at IVAO, due to not meeting the requirements for enough online flights per member and number of IVAO active members. That's what started this discussion in the first place Unfortunately, that also meant that we lost our TeamSpeak Company Channel, which we had just set up to promote our on-line activity. Assuming we will be able to get that status back, we also need to pant AI models (next to all regular models) to deliver in that specific format for AI planes, and we must make a selection of which planes we want in the MTL in our livery, and which ones we'll skip (this limitation on the number of liveries also is the reason why you will never find event-specific liveries in the MTL)

Anyway: if you connect to IVAO using IvAp, you select a plane type. At the bottom of the IvAp screen you select the airline you fly for, and those are the installed MTL files you can choose from. You will find that there is no EHM A318 listed, so you have to choose a different one. Say you choose the Air France one, then all network users see you as an Air France plane. Peter then sees his own plane as he loads it in FS(9/X), so with the EHM livery, but he will see you in your Air France livery. And that's how you appear in his screenshots.

We (EHM MT - Operations department; Dominic and myself) have to choose which liveries we want to submit, and create the necessary paint schemes in the correct format to send to the IVAO MTL department, once we get our V.A. status on IVAO back again. Until then, there's nothing much we can do but encourage you to fly online, albeit in different colours, using your EHM call sign

[EHM-1882 Gian]

Thanks for your input Erik-Jan. As we said in prior communications, we should really encourage flying on IVAO and have EHM recognized again. I think we have a starting base of pilots (the ones who are currently trying as much as possible) to complete the 007 event on line...May be we could extend that by planning on line group flights (as it was the case in the past if I'm correct...). Is it something which could be easily organized? maybe via communications on the forum or on the web page....Any idea of the numbers of hours to achieve to be "accepted" again as virtual airline by IVAO?
I am personnally more used to fly on line with VATSIM, but apparently the majority of pilots are using IVAO...So, I started adapting myself as we have more fun flying as a group...

Thks again to all the team for your unvaluable commitment to make our airline a top one!:
Gian
EHM-1882

[EHM-2581 Dirk]

I become so jealous when reading the latest inputs from Eric-Jan and Gian. The urge to fly online is becoming stronger all the time but, alas, I can not shed the technical problems. The contents of Eric-Jan's posting @ 11:49 on the 19th September are taken to heart. Here I am referring to the ultimate paragraph and in particular the advice regarding starting at a remote airfield and the working up from there makes so much sense. But there is need to get online first. Eric-Jan I have done the necessay uninstallations but will follow your advice and try one more time.I am currently in communication with IVAO as well as two of our own (online) pilots to get things going. I would like to quote short extracts from correspondence thus far:- .......

"First of all, we are well aware that the step up for new members can be quite high. For this reason we already did a huge amount of work for the IvAp v1.x (FS8/FS9) series by reworking the installer for user friendlyness.

Sadly speaking, this process is not completed yet for the IvAp v2.x codebase for FSX. However we remain dedicated to improve this process for the future. Even worse, if you rely only on the IvAp manual, that one is written for FS8/FS9 and not fully up to date for FSX."

Then I encountered a problem with not being able to find IvAp on the taskbar of FSX when wanting to start it as only FSUIPC came up. Here are the salient points from the correspondence with IVAO.

(Dirk: "I went to the Addons as you suggested but find only FSUIPC there. How can I set this tight to get IvAp on the Bar as well")

(Response from IVAO:  "Did you (during starting FSX) click "yes" to execute ivap_fsx_bootstrap.dll?)

(Dirk: "You have me on this one. I have never (during starting FSX) clicked "yes" to execute ivap_fsx_bootstrap.dll. Did not know this exists. How can this be rectified?).

(Response from IVAO: "When you start FSX, before you see the flight selection screen you should get a popup about security. It states something like that it might be dangerous to execute ivap_fsx.bootstrap.dll and wants you to confirm it.")

(Dirk: "Since receiving your last response I have again run IvAp installation with MTL and FSUIPC. Again only FSUIPC comes up on the Bar").

So far the correspondence. And this is where we stand at present.
Any input from online pilots or otherwise would be appreciated

Regards,
Dirk - 2581

[EHM-1882 Gian]

Dirk, I have exactly the same problem with FX...This is one I still go on with the old FS...9....In addition, I can't use Flight logger with FX....It stays blocked after I have selected the flight....Last but not least, no way to have FSC working with FX!!! Again, I just go back to FS9...It's a pity not being able to optimize the use of FX....So I completely share your frustration too
hope to see you in the skyes anyway!
Gian
EHM-1882

[EHM-2387 Eric-Jan]

Dirk, I will get back to you in a PM on this in the next couple of days.

I have to dive in to the subject myself a little, because I've got things working for a couple of years already. So I don't exactly remember the details any more.
That may take until the other side of this weekend, but keep an eye on your messages line (way on top of this page, next to your avatar).

Let's consider this a support issue, and split it off of this thread for now, as to no cloud it too much

EDIT: Once I've sorted out the installation details, I'll get back to you too, Gian. I have things up and running in both FS9 and FSX at the same PC, so there must be a solution

[EHM-2097 Andrei]

@Gian: FL4 blocked after selecting the flight (I think this means: not recording anything) looks like a FSUIPC issue. Note that different versions of FSUIPC.DLL should be used for FS9 or FSX. Could this be the problem?

Andrei

[EHM-1882 Gian]

Thks for your input Andrei and Eric-Jan...I'll try again and keep an eye on the forumanyway:)

[EHM-1465 Dominic]

Gian,

I don't know if you noticed Andrei's question in the post above yours?

Have you installed FSUIPC version 4 in FSX? FSUIPC is the module that allows Flight Logger to communicate with FS2004 and FSX but there are different versions for FS9 and FSX so you need to ensure you have installed version 4 of FSUIPC into FSX or Flogger won't be able to get any flight data from the sim

[EHM-1882 Gian]

Dominic,

I have installed FSUIP, also in FSX, but when I go through the intall log, I see that "FSX.CFG" is "not found"...Maybe this is the cause of my troubles...but how can I have this FSX.cfg file? 
Thks
Gian

[EHM-1882 Gian]

Dominic, without bothering you too much, this is my installation log....Thks


INSTALLATION FOR FSX:
SetupPath="C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Games\Microsoft Flight Simulator X\"
Checking version of FSX.EXE:
... Version 10.0.60905.0  (Need at least 10.0.60905.0)
Checking compatibility with installed SimConnect:
    Found SimConnect build 60905 (Original)
    Found SimConnect build 61242 (SP1 May07)
Checking if there's already a version of FSUIPC4 installed in:
       C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Games\Microsoft Flight Simulator X\Modules\FSUIPC4.DLL
... Version 4.853 found.
FSX Modules folder already exists.
Okay -- installed FSUIPC4 into "C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Games\Microsoft Flight Simulator X\Modules\FSUIPC4.DLL"
Looking for the current user's Application Data path:
... found as "C:\Users\Gros loup\AppData\Roaming"
Now finding \Microsoft\FSX\FSX.CFG for all users, including this one
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\.jenny\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\aircraft\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\AppData\Roaming"
Found FSX.CFG in "C:\Users\Gros loup\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\FSX\FSX.CFG"
Now checking DLL.XML ...
... There is a previous DLL.XML, checking for FSUIPC4 section.
... FSUIPC4 section already exists but will be replaced.
     (for FSUIPC4, without Loader)
... FSUIPC4 section of DLL.XML written okay
Now checking for a SimConnect.XML file ...
... There is a SimConnect.XML, checking for "local" section.
... "local" section already exists, file not modified.
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Application Data\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Contacts\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Cookies\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Desktop\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Doc\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Documents\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Downloads\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\effects\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Favorites\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Links\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Local Settings\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Menu Démarrer\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Mes documents\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Mes fichiers de sauvegardes\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\modules\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Modèles\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Music\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Pictures\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Recent\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Saved Games\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Searches\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\SendTo\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Tracing\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Videos\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Voisinage d'impression\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\Voisinage réseau\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
Looking in "C:\Users\Gros loup\x64\Roaming"
 ... No FSX.CFG there
"Modules\FSUIPC Documents" folder already exists.
Now installing additional files into the "Modules\FSUIPC Documents" folder:
   Installed "FSUIPC4 User Guide.pdf" okay
   Installed "FSUIPC4 for Advanced Users.pdf" okay
   Installed "FSUIPC4 History.pdf" okay
   Installed "List of FSX controls.pdf" okay
   Installed "GlobalSign Root.exe" okay
   Installed "FSUIPC Lua Library.pdf" okay
   Installed "FSUIPC Lua Plug-Ins.pdf" okay
   Installed "Lua License.pdf" okay
   Installed "Lua Plugins for VRInsight Devices.pdf" okay
   Installed "LuaFileSystem.pdf" okay
   Installed "Example LUA plugins.zip" okay
   Installed "Offset Mapping for PMDG 737NGX.pdf" okay
FSUIPC4.DLL installed and signature checked out okay!
Deleted GlobalSign Root fix program ... no longer relevant
===========================================================

All installer tasks completed.
Registration for FSUIPC4 was cancelled or failed! (result code 40)

*************** End of Install Log ***************

[EHM-2387 Eric-Jan]

Maybe UAC (user Account Control) is in the way. UAC prevents (amongst others) automated scripts from modifying files in certain folders. "Program Files"is typically one of them.
Installing FSX in a different than default location (I have a separate disk for FS, so mine is in E;\FS\Microsoft Fli.....) might be a solution in your case, Gian.

But if you uninstall from Program Files, first make sure the FSX path indicator is removed from the registry, before re-installing to a different location. To do that, you will need to run a registry cleaner utility for FSX: http://www.flight1.com/view.asp?page=library
Maybe just running the registry repair tool is enough, even...