C651 KATL-WIII = impossible?!

[EHM-1994 Michelle]

I tried the above mentioned flight today, but I guess it's just a bit too long ... The range of the B747-400F is about 7235NM with full fuel tanks. The great circle distance is already 9000NM! Therefore, Flying to Jakarta from Atlanta is really impossible, unless EuroHarmony buys some planes for mid-air refueling The same is probably true for the EuroCargo flights to Melbourne and Sydney. All the other destinations for Cat 7 EuroCargo from KATL are possible. Just those three aren't. Perhaps an idea to use an airport on the West Coast as a secondary hub, to be able to reach those destinations?

[EHM-1798 Conrad]

From Atlanta to Jakarta with the 777-200LR is possible, but not in the 747 no.

[EHM-1703 Philip]

Thanks guys, will deactivate it from the schedule. Give me a day or two!

[EHM-1652 Doug]

EHM-C479 ESSA - NZAA   is  another of the same - the solution widely adopted with this flight has been to  make a tech fuel stop en-route, in my case VHHH.

When completing  your pirep be sure to report the total flight time for the two sectors and in the remarks column indicate where (and why) the tech stop took place.  A note to your hub manager would I'm sure be appreciated too! An easy if I may suggest simple work around - rather than lose a good flight from the schedule:o
:>
Best wishes,

Doug R
EHM1652
ESSA.

[EHM-0654 Murray]

Doug,

The one minor flaw is that you can't use the FLogger to do that *and* have it submit the PIREP.

Having said that, you could use it to record the two flights (remember to do a NEW LOG once you're stopped at your refueling aerodrome(s)), then manually submit the PIREP via the website.

[EHM-1994 Michelle]

And you shouldn't try to do it as a ProPilot flight either, like i did ...

Would it perhaps be an idea to use either Singapore, Kuala Lumpur or Bangkok as a secondary hub for flights coming from Europe to Australia, Indonesia and New Zealand. (no not a real hub, but just a place to enable flights to Australia, Indonesia and New Zealand)

A quick search for real flights from Amsterdam to Australia, Indonesia and New Zealand, shows that all three airports are used for a stop. From the USA to Australia and New Zealand KLAX and KSFO are used, while for Indonesia two stops are being made (including one in Singapore).

[EHM-0695 Scott]

It should be noted.... technically (as published by Boeing), the Boeing 747-400 Freighter max range is 4,445 nautical miles and the Boeing 747-400ER Freighter max range is 4,970 nautical miles. The max fuel payload for both aircraft is 57,285 US Gallons. The Boeing 747-400 range is 7,260 nautical miles where the 747-400ER range is 7,670 nautical miles (max fuel 63,705 US Gal).

I've become accustomed to checking all of EHM's class 7 flights against Boeing's published aircraft performance charts to ensure flights are realistically possible. www.boeing.com and www.airbus.com are invaluable sites for information on weight restrictions, runway requirements, aircraft performance (range). Hope this helps.

[EHM-1703 Philip]

Gents,

Let me just clear up why the situation has arisen. Over the years the fleet has changes many times and so have the schedules, we tend not to remove flights although of course when we do change a division aircraft from say a 777-300ER to a 747-400 then of course range becomes an issue.

We have a number of ways of tackling this.....

1) Check every flight in the schedule against published performance figures for the current fleet and remove any that do not correspond.
2) Where a flight has become impossible, insert another flight to enable a tech stop. (We have not used tech stops much due to complicating schedules)
3) Leave it as it is and let the pilots use their judgement.

Personally, I feel we should leave it as is and let you use your judgement. If you want us to remove flights that are impossible for current fleet aircraft, we can do that, it will be a time consuming process and will not happen over night.

It's your airline, you decide

[EHM-1671 Ben]

I have raised the issue before of a possible tech stop feature and I used to be of the opinion that it would be a good idea to implement a sort of button or setting on the FLogger which may fix this sort of problem. However, that would probably be too much for the management to add to the FLogger (as it would require a changing in both airline rules/policy and the FLogger code, not to mention that all pilots would need to download the FLogger again!!).

I would love to make flights from New Zealand, where I live, to Europe for the airline. If I do so, and make the flight to ESSA, I will manually log the first leg of the flight and then the second (I think Murray said that was ok!).

In the real world, flights from New Zealand to Europe are very competitive. The traditional stopovers are Hong Kong, Bangkok, Singapore and Los Angeles. The national airline, Air New Zealand, advertizes 'both ways to Europe' - that is to say, the airline flies to and from London Heathrow through both Los Angeles and Hong Kong. Perhaps EuroHarmony could look into introducing a flight from EGLL to NZAA and pilots could use the 'technical stop' technique which Murray explained?

[EHM-0654 Murray]

Ben,

Just to be clear, I was commenting/backing up the procedure Doug gave - fly (and record) two legs, submit them as a single PIREP (ensuring you indicate the tech stop, it's duration, etc)

I merely pointed out that the FLogger could be used to record the timings and fuel burns, etc.

[EHM-1671 Ben]

Originally posted by EHM-0654 Murray
Ben,

Just to be clear, I was commenting/backing up the procedure Doug gave - fly (and record) two legs, submit them as a single PIREP (ensuring you indicate the tech stop, it's duration, etc)

I merely pointed out that the FLogger could be used to record the timings and fuel burns, etc.

So, would I not be allowed to use the same procedure for the flight from NZAA to ESSA or NZAA to KATL?